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Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274852
08/19/14 04:35 PM
08/19/14 04:35 PM

S
Scarecrow
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Scarecrow
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S



You can have a "T" foil without it being a "moth style foil" The key to the moth technology is the wand used to control ride height via lift. This has been adopted by both the whisper and the Stunt S.9.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274855
08/19/14 06:57 PM
08/19/14 06:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
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Bille Offline
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YEA -- i see what you're talking about now !!

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Bille] #274860
08/20/14 05:51 AM
08/20/14 05:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by Bille
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
a couple of little things.

1. Moth style foils were tried on C-cats and proved slow. L/J/Z/C foils have proven fast. Obviously there are a lot of things that effect the cross over on where different systems are beneficial but right now the evidence points towards the non-wand systems being faster.

...


Moth style foils are called T-foils.
T-foils are slower than J-foils.
BUT
We use T-foils with our kite boards ; and they have
gone over 40kts with them. That's NOT too Bad ?

Seriously -- if i were to build a catamaran for the purpose
of selling it ; i wouldn't Want it to go much faster than
35-kts, because of liability issues !! ?
I WOULD want it to be Very stable, and easy to sail.

Up-wind on a T-foil with a kite board ; they will Blow-by
any conventional devise currently available ; and do it
in Less wind. SO a decently designed T-foil should do
quite well on a catamaran.

Wing loading on the hydrofoil, has proven to be a BIG
thing with our kite boards ; wonder if it affects a heavier
catamaran as well ?

Bille


Wait...I think I felt the earth move...Bille is worried about liability?


Jake Kohl
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274864
08/20/14 11:22 AM
08/20/14 11:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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jollyrodgers  Offline
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maui
Wands aren't just for T foils, there are also wands controlling L-ish foils on Long Shot, TOP SPEED = 43.59 knots
"Longshot is a hydrofoil trimaran with a biplane rig. Two curved foils are mounted beneath the outer hulls, and a third foil forms an inverted T at the bottom of the rudder. The angle of attack of the outer foils is controlled by surface sensors attached forward of the outer hulls with flexible struts."

The wands on Whisper appear to be very slick. When they put the boards down there were no connections to make between the levers and the boards, and it looks like they fit into the trunks. On a moth and stunt there is a lever connection point mounted forward. Also a moth can't raise the foils, so there seems to be some interesting engineering on the Whisper.
Based on the video, the whisper seems to foil in the light stuff very easily. It seems like there would probably be too much foil area for the heavy winds if this works anything like sail area does. Time will tell on that speculation, but have seen moth videos where they said that it was too windy to get downwind. That could be just from too much sail area, but it could have something to do with foil size as well.

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Jake] #274865
08/20/14 11:46 AM
08/20/14 11:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake


...

Wait...I think I felt the earth move...Bille is worried about liability?


Not completely sure WHY you would say That ?

If i were actually Selling Fast Cat's ; then Yes i would be
worried about liability in this sue Crazy USA . Crap -- every
other advertisement on radio or local TV , is about some Lawyer
trying to talk people into hiring them !!

Bille

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: jollyrodgers] #274866
08/20/14 11:57 AM
08/20/14 11:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
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Bille Offline
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Originally Posted by jollyrodgers

...

Based on the video, the whisper seems to foil in the light stuff very easily. It seems like there would probably be too much foil area for the heavy winds if this works anything like sail area does. Time will tell on that speculation, but have seen moth videos where they said that it was too windy to get downwind. That could be just from too much sail area, but it could have something to do with foil size as well.


From Kite boarding, i know that Both foil aria and Sail aria
must be balanced , to match the riders weight and speed he
wants to go, for the wind that day.

And that brings up another question : "why are so many
cat sailors, so Reluctant to reef a main sail, to match
the power of the wind on any given day" ?

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274905
08/21/14 11:48 PM
08/21/14 11:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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maui
[Linked Image]
you mean these days are gone?
but seriously it does make some sense to make a boat that gets up and goes in the lighter stuff.

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: jollyrodgers] #275004
08/26/14 10:34 PM
08/26/14 10:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline
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Jeff Peterson  Offline
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Minnesota
Oh-oh...Don't let the lawyers see that picture of a Hobie without a comp tip!



Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275017
08/27/14 01:16 PM
08/27/14 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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I like that the mainsail is reefed...


Jay

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275023
08/27/14 01:42 PM
08/27/14 01:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I like that the mainsail is reefed...


YES !!!!!!!!

I was kite boarding on lake Mohave a few years back ; there was
a Hobie regatta going on that day , with 50 + cats on
the beach. They were ALL looking at the 30+ mph wind
and nobody was actually out on the water but one guy and
his daughter, (and they were tearing it up) !!

As a kite boarder i had No problem with that wind, because
i simply matched the sail-aria to the power needed for the day.
I did the Same with my buddy on our Hobie 20 ; if it was
blowing 30+, we reefed the main to the size of a Hobie 16
for the day, (Or even sailed without the main, and just used
a jib).

I do NOT understand why most cat sailors won't
reef a main and match the sail aria to the wind conditions
for the day ; it seams beyond DUMB, to me ? !!!

Bille

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #275024
08/27/14 02:31 PM
08/27/14 02:31 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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No hardware for it on new boats.
Mainsail shape is ruined when reefed as the luff curve dont match the mast.
If racing and the windspeed changes, you loose if reefed.

As the boats today are mostly racing oriented. They are simply not ready.



Now back to the brit foiler?

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #275025
08/27/14 03:00 PM
08/27/14 03:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen


No hardware for it on new boats.
Mainsail shape is ruined when reefed as the luff curve dont match the mast.
If racing and the windspeed changes, you loose if reefed.

As the boats today are mostly racing oriented. They are simply not ready.



Now back to the brit foiler?



This.



Upwind isn't the problem. Diamonds maxed, downhaul maxed, rotation back, sheeted hard and drop a couple of inches of traveler and you're there. You're spilling so much air, and the sail is so flat that unless you had a way to properly make use of your downhaul, you'd probably be making more unwanted power than if you made use of what you've already got. Floppy masts and squaretop mains have an amazing amount of control.

Downwind though, better bring the beef.

and yes, back to the Limey Flyer. grin


I'm boatless.
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #275028
08/27/14 03:04 PM
08/27/14 03:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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The modern rigs also de-power pretty well. I don't know about 30+ I've never encountered that much wind. If I lived in an area with conditions like that I might give it some more thought.

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Karl_Brogger] #275032
08/27/14 05:42 PM
08/27/14 05:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen


No hardware for it on new boats.
Mainsail shape is ruined when reefed as the luff curve dont match the mast.
If racing and the windspeed changes, you loose if reefed.

As the boats today are mostly racing oriented. They are simply not ready.



Now back to the brit foiler?



This.



Upwind isn't the problem. Diamonds maxed, downhaul maxed, rotation back, sheeted hard and drop a couple of inches of traveler and you're there. You're spilling so much air, and the sail is so flat that unless you had a way to properly make use of your downhaul, you'd probably be making more unwanted power than if you made use of what you've already got. Floppy masts and squaretop mains have an amazing amount of control.

Downwind though, better bring the beef.

and yes, back to the Limey Flyer. grin


In a straight line - I'll buy that a little...but maneuvering (tacking / gybing) with a reefed rig is MUCH easier.


Jake Kohl
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Karl_Brogger] #275033
08/27/14 08:48 PM
08/27/14 08:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen


No hardware for it on new boats.
Mainsail shape is ruined when reefed as the luff curve dont match the mast.
If racing and the windspeed changes, you loose if reefed.

As the boats today are mostly racing oriented. They are simply not ready.



Now back to the brit foiler?



This.



Upwind isn't the problem. Diamonds maxed, downhaul maxed, rotation back, sheeted hard and drop a couple of inches of traveler and you're there. You're spilling so much air, and the sail is so flat that unless you had a way to properly make use of your downhaul, you'd probably be making more unwanted power than if you made use of what you've already got. Floppy masts and squaretop mains have an amazing amount of control.

Downwind though, better bring the beef.

and yes, back to the Limey Flyer. grin


This.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: rehmbo] #275034
08/27/14 09:15 PM
08/27/14 09:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 88
Memphis, TN
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Andy Humphries Offline
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Memphis, TN
What do the trailing wands do?

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #275036
08/27/14 10:40 PM
08/27/14 10:40 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



Sense the boat's height above water and use it to control the amount of lift generated by automatically adjusting either angle of incidence or flap angle.

Last edited by Scarecrow; 08/28/14 04:45 PM.
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Bille] #275040
08/28/14 07:13 AM
08/28/14 07:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Bille

I do NOT understand why most cat sailors won't
reef a main and match the sail aria to the wind conditions
for the day ; it seams beyond DUMB, to me ? !!!

Bille


Bring enough gun to the fight.

I was originally thinking of reefing for long-distance type races where conditions deteriorate during the race. Sure, going out around the buoys when it's 30+ may not make sense in the first place, but in a controlled area it may be worth finding your "limit".

Now, based on the conversations, if there were an easy way to reef/unreef I think you'd see more people take advantage of that in longer races.

The time you spend reefing/unreefing (if it's a straightforward process) would more than make up for the time spent sideways.

My roller-furling boom makes reefing a snap: Three cranks and two grommets (downhaul and outhaul) and it's reefed. Even easier if I don't need to shape the sail (just roll and go). Un-reefing is the reverse.

Perhaps this could be adapted to smaller boats, as I have teardrop rotating/canting mast just like you short-boaters.



Jay

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275062
08/28/14 09:53 PM
08/28/14 09:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline
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Jeff Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 493
Minnesota
Let's stop hijacking this thread and start a new thread specific to reefing, as it is an underdiscussed topic. I'll create the topic thread under "Reefer Madness". See you there.

Back to the original dream of owning a boat that will cost more than my house!



Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275075
08/29/14 09:59 AM
08/29/14 09:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
sure thing. Thanks

BUT, would this speed demon need to be reefed in heavy air to reduce the chance of the foils ventilating?

I'm sure at some point you'll have to depower, even if it's at 40 kts boatspeed rather than 30.


Jay

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