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Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275308
09/11/14 02:00 PM
09/11/14 02:00 PM
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I know a picture is worth 1,000 words. Has anyone used "Boat Scenario"? I found it on the web looking for diagrams.

If you do use it, can you cut/paste/insert it here somehow?


Jay

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Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275309
09/11/14 02:11 PM
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Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: tshan] #275310
09/11/14 02:15 PM
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looked like port started to duck and then changed their mind...

holy gelcoat, batman


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275311
09/11/14 02:19 PM
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No way they were shooting that gap anyway. Bad place to be.

I looked up the race results M87 (port) had a DNF in the last three races (looks like they lost a rudder, too) - but the boat that followed M87 in there (T18) finished 8th (out of 79) in the regatta (6th in that race - they made up some ground).

T18 could easily have been DSQ that race or at least penalized and had to do turns. Is that incorrect or were they close enough to the mark where other rules come into play (note: I realize that the orange mark is an offset mark and the windward mark is the yellow mark)?

Last edited by tshan; 09/11/14 02:29 PM.

Tom
Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: tshan] #275312
09/11/14 02:22 PM
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+1, that doesn't look like a hack-fleet who's going to let someone get away with murder/port-tacking the fleet.


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat] #275313
09/11/14 02:38 PM
09/11/14 02:38 PM
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I am surprised by all the talk of luffing head to wind.
In this scenario, the overlap developed with a clear astern boat overlapping to leeward. Isn't L obligated to not sail above her proper course by rule 17
Quote
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat.

Is that because her proper course would be to tack?
Quote
Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

Because I don't see sailing head to wind as the way to finish as soon as possible. Her proper course takes her head to wind but then is unable to complete the tack because 13 switches on?



F16 Blade 716
Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: bobcat] #275314
09/11/14 03:26 PM
09/11/14 03:26 PM
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Yes.

Because L established overlap to leeward from clear astern within two boatlengths of W, L may not sail above her proper course (rule 17). Also, because W was clear ahead when she reached the zone, L must give W mark-room (rule 18.2(b)).

So, as they approach the mark, L may not luff-up, and she must allow W to sail to the mark. When they reach the starboard-tack layline, however, L's proper course (the course she would sail in the absence of L) is to tack. Also, L's tacking would not prevent W from rounding the mark. Therefore, neither rule 17 nor rule 18.2(b) prevents L from tacking.

Rule 13 though, would kick in the moment L passed head-to-wind. L is free to turn head-to-wind provided she gives W room to keep clear (per rule 16.1). If W wishes, however, she may prevent L from tacking by placing herself in a position where L would be unable to keep clear after passing head-to-wind.

As a practical matter, W most likely would (and in this scenario did) tack. If W's goal is to extend her lead on L, then she can hold L at head-to-wind until L loses headway and then tack.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275315
09/11/14 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I know a picture is worth 1,000 words. Has anyone used "Boat Scenario"? I found it on the web looking for diagrams.

If you do use it, can you cut/paste/insert it here somehow?


[Linked Image]

Attached Files
CatSailor1.png (188 downloads)
Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275326
09/12/14 06:50 AM
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Thanks Eric! That totally sums this up, and the pic helps a lot.

As for that video, just another example of the complete and utter misuse/overuse of the word "epic." Had the bow entered the hull, I might think otherwise. Having that out of my system, who wants to walk through the rules and obligations?

Mike

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275328
09/12/14 09:32 AM
09/12/14 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
[Linked Image]

The problem with using Boat Scenario is that the time scale is hard to get right between different tracks. This diagram illustrates that perfectly.

For example, between positions 1 and 2, blue moves almost two boat lengths, whereas yellow moves just a bit more than 1 - meaning that blue is moving twice as fast as yellow, even though yellow is sailing a lower course and should be going significantly faster.

It's something that takes a bit of thought when drawing these scenarios.

Also, the little S curve in blue's track between positions 4 and 5 is unrealistic - unless there was a current going from left to right.

It's easy to make boats do the impossible when creating these diagrams. Getting them right takes some skill - and playing the animation over and over until it looks right.

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat] #275334
09/12/14 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
As for that video, ... who wants to walk through the rules and obligations?

Rule 10. Oh, and rule 14 too. Port was obligated to keep clear and did not. Port was obligated to avoid contact and did not. It was not reasonably possible for S to avoid contact, so she did not break any rules.

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: mbounds] #275335
09/12/14 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mbounds
The problem with using Boat Scenario is that the time scale is hard to get right between different tracks. This diagram illustrates that perfectly.

BoatScenario is by no means a perfect tool, but it is relatively simple to use and allows one to cobble-up these diagrams without too much fuss.

Quote
For example, between positions 1 and 2, blue moves almost two boat lengths, whereas yellow moves just a bit more than 1 - meaning that blue is moving twice as fast as yellow, even though yellow is sailing a lower course and should be going significantly faster.

The initial description said that the windward boat had overstood the layline but was sailing slower than the leeward boat. W was clear ahead at the zone, but later became overlapped, just as the diagram shows.

Quote
Also, the little S curve in blue's track between positions 4 and 5 is unrealistic - unless there was a current going from left to right.

Please pretend the little s-curve is a straight line. It is an artifact of how BoatScenario draws tracks, not an intentional representation of Blue's course. I tried to get the boat positions and headings right and didn't worry too much about the track lines.

Yes, the program is imperfect. Yes, it does introduce errata when animating. Yes, there are situations that BoatScenario simply won't draw (such as sailing by the lee). Nevertheless, if I had to resort to a less convenient tool (say, Corel Draw), I wouldn't have posted a drawing at all.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275338
09/12/14 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by brucat
As for that video, ... who wants to walk through the rules and obligations?

Rule 10. Oh, and rule 14 too. Port was obligated to keep clear and did not. Port was obligated to avoid contact and did not. It was not reasonably possible for S to avoid contact, so she did not break any rules.

I disagree with S not being reasonably possible to avoid contact. They made virtually no attempt to alter course - they waggled a little bit, then t-boned P directly amidships. Deer in the headlights. They could have headed up, just as the boat behind them did (and avoided the situation entirely). Their spinnaker was only 1/2 way up when the collision happened, so that wasn't preventing them from luffing up.

Re: the boat scenario diagram - I knew you put that together quickly, so don't take my criticism personally - I just wanted to point out that even "pretty" diagrams can be misleading. You have to really think about what you're looking at and decide if it makes sense.

Last edited by mbounds; 09/12/14 05:59 PM.
Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: mbounds] #275341
09/12/14 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by brucat
As for that video, ... who wants to walk through the rules and obligations?

Rule 10. Oh, and rule 14 too. Port was obligated to keep clear and did not. Port was obligated to avoid contact and did not. It was not reasonably possible for S to avoid contact, so she did not break any rules.

I disagree with S not being reasonably possible to avoid contact. They made virtually no attempt to alter course - they waggled a little bit, then t-boned P directly amidships. Deer in the headlights. They could have headed up, just as the boat behind them did (and avoided the situation entirely). Their spinnaker was only 1/2 way up when the collision happened, so that wasn't preventing them from luffing up.

Re: the boat scenario diagram - I knew you put that together quickly, so don't take my criticism personally - I just wanted to point out that even "pretty" diagrams can be misleading. You have to really think about what you're looking at and decide if it makes sense.


I watched that a couple of times thinking the same thing...but for a moment there they did that dancy thing where S went to starboard as P went to port...both tried to counter by making the opposite move and bang.

Watch it twice - one time keep your eyes trained on S. Then have a second go and keep your eyes trained on P. I think you'll see both of them try to avoid in the same direction and the counter in the same direction right before it's too late.


Jake Kohl
Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275342
09/12/14 06:13 PM
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Seems like we can't get most people to recreate the boat tracks the same way twice with model boats in the room, either. To say nothing of what the hand-drawn "diagrams" look like on the protest forms. I don't even know why they're there, seems that most people either can't draw (usually self-admitted), or draw something that in no way matches the written description. It's amazing how much different the testimony is as well. All part of the fun of being a judge, I guess!

As for the video, I think that would pass as non issue for S, because without the video, I'd almost guarantee that the jury couldn't decide definitively from the testimony that S could have avoided. But, with the video, I think S was changing course the whole time, and most likely completely focused on getting the chute up.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 09/12/14 06:17 PM.
Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: mbounds] #275344
09/12/14 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mbounds
I disagree with S not being reasonably possible to avoid contact. They made virtually no attempt to alter course...

At time 0:36, M87 (on port tack) turned down to sail in front of H7 (on starboard tack). At time 0:37, they made contact.

In that one second, just how much do you think H7 could have done? Even if she took no time at all to assess the situation, and put the helm hard over, at 7+ kts boatspeed they'd almost certainly still collide.

Remember that a right-of-way boat need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear. See RRS 14(a) and ISAF Case 87.

Given the video shown, I'd be very surprised if any jury penalized H7. This is about as cut-and-dried as it gets.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: mbounds] #275345
09/12/14 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Re: the boat scenario diagram - I knew you put that together quickly, so don't take my criticism personally - I just wanted to point out that even "pretty" diagrams can be misleading.

I drew what I understood the situation to be from the written description provided. Do you think the diagram conflicts with the text in any significant way? If so, how?

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: brucat] #275346
09/12/14 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
... seems that most people either can't draw (usually self-admitted), or draw something that in no way matches the written description. It's amazing how much different the testimony is as well. All part of the fun of being a judge, I guess!

Absolutely. The hard part of hearing a protest is figuring out what happened on the racecourse. Applying the rules is easy in comparison.

I recall a "facts found" writeup floating around the judges community a while back that began: "two boats, sailing in different regattas on different bodies of water, both on starboard tack and both to leeward, made contact..."

Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275349
09/12/14 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by mbounds
I disagree with S not being reasonably possible to avoid contact. They made virtually no attempt to alter course...

At time 0:36, M87 (on port tack) turned down to sail in front of H7 (on starboard tack). At time 0:37, they made contact.

In that one second, just how much do you think H7 could have done? Even if she took no time at all to assess the situation, and put the helm hard over, at 7+ kts boatspeed they'd almost certainly still collide.

Remember that a right-of-way boat need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear. See RRS 14(a) and ISAF Case 87.

Given the video shown, I'd be very surprised if any jury penalized H7. This is about as cut-and-dried as it gets.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

Admittedly, without the video, it would be very difficult to determine this.

However, at 0:33, H7 rounds the offset and M87 (and another boat on port) are already in the frame - about 3 boatlengths away. H7's only way to avoid collision is to head up - and instead, they bear away.

Watch the port boat behind M87 and the two starboard boats behind H7. They managed to avoid a collision, why couldn't H7? Because he had his head in the boat - when there were not one, but two port boats on a collision course.

"Not reasonably possible?" Not when you t-bone someone dead square amidships at a right angle - and when there are other boats that manage to avoid a collision in similar circumstances.

I'm very well aware of 14(a) and Case 87. Take a look at Case 123. This one doesn't pass the sniff test when you look at the video. DSQ RRS 14(a).

Matt Bounds
US Sailing National Race Officer
US Sailing Regional Judge


Last edited by mbounds; 09/12/14 08:37 PM.
Re: Racing Rules: "Right of Way" [Re: Isotope235] #275351
09/12/14 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by mbounds
Re: the boat scenario diagram - I knew you put that together quickly, so don't take my criticism personally - I just wanted to point out that even "pretty" diagrams can be misleading.

I drew what I understood the situation to be from the written description provided. Do you think the diagram conflicts with the text in any significant way? If so, how?

"Slightly slower" does not equal half as fast. The "squiggle" isn't really significant, but you told me to "please ignore it". Well, if I have to ignore that, then what else should I ignore? (I've heard that before from an IJ).

Eric, I'm not trying to niggle - I was just pointing out that just because Boat Scenario diagrams are pretty, doesn't mean they are 100% accurate.

Last edited by mbounds; 09/12/14 08:40 PM.
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