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Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279204
05/28/15 12:53 AM
05/28/15 12:53 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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If I was unable to accept change, I would sail an Optimist.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #279207
05/28/15 05:08 AM
05/28/15 05:08 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
If I was unable to accept change, I would sail an Optimist.


There's a pun in there somewhere.


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Jake] #279210
05/28/15 07:09 AM
05/28/15 07:09 AM
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Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
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Isotope235  Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
If I was unable to accept change, I would sail an Optimist.
- There's a pun in there somewhere.

I once considered designing an adult-size sailing pram with comp-tip, hobie-bob, padded rails, flotation bags, self-bailers, and kick up centerboard and rudder. I was going to call it the "Pessimist".

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Isotope235] #279211
05/28/15 07:27 AM
05/28/15 07:27 AM
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope235

I once considered designing an adult-size sailing pram with comp-tip, hobie-bob, padded rails, flotation bags, self-bailers, and kick up centerboard and rudder. I was going to call it the "Pessimist".


wait... I thought you were describing the Wave. Which has a huge following ... just sayin'


Jay

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Isotope235] #279214
05/28/15 07:54 AM
05/28/15 07:54 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by Jake
If I was unable to accept change, I would sail an Optimist.
- There's a pun in there somewhere.

I once considered designing an adult-size sailing pram with comp-tip, hobie-bob, padded rails, flotation bags, self-bailers, and kick up centerboard and rudder. I was going to call it the "Pessimist".


now THAT's a pun.


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279216
05/28/15 08:19 AM
05/28/15 08:19 AM
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Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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What's the latest from the F18 camp on foiling?


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: dave mosley] #279220
05/28/15 09:01 AM
05/28/15 09:01 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by dave mosley
What's the latest from the F18 camp on foiling?


There is no camp for that in F18 land. The rules dictate straight boards with boards operating linearly in the vertical plane of the hull profile. Even the inward angled boards were squished several years ago. The boat is also pretty heavy to invest in foiling.

However, the Phantom was an F18 based design that was redesigned for foiling with a wider beam and lighter construction (about 280 to 300lbs).


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279221
05/28/15 09:05 AM
05/28/15 09:05 AM
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Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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I don't want an F18 to foil, just wanted to make sure when I get another one that the rules don't change and leave me behind!


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279223
05/28/15 09:13 AM
05/28/15 09:13 AM
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West coast of Norway
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Classes come and classes go.

The F18 class is so restricted, by intention, that any investment is as safe as an investment in a boat can be.



I would love to sail on foils. Even if I had to work hard on my own skills to make it foil. That is what sailing is about for me. Working on my skills (and that is fun!)


I dont know about puns there Jake. But I am sure there are plenty of huns making a mess of it laugh

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Mark Schneider] #279224
05/28/15 09:20 AM
05/28/15 09:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Todd

Hobie 14
Hobie Wave
Hobie 17
Isotope
F16 Single hander
A class floater
A Class ISAF Flyer
A Class USA Franken Flyer

Plenty of cat sailors racing all of these boats. They all still have NA's. Dave's point that constant change is not good for participation is supported by the fact that these old classes are still going well.... and for cheap!

However,... you don't see any Catnips, Woodies, Boyer 4s in the floater class.... Why? the other old boats are still racing?
Dave nails it...Set aside sails.... if every year... you need to inject 4K in equipment upgrades to stay with pack.. The flush rate will be high...

Only the A class has seen value in splitting into three classes. Why?


So what you're saying is I should sail what YOU think is good for sailing and not what I want.Sail what you want antiquated or cutting edge, but quit being a socialist/hater about what other people want to do. I guarantee you I have less money than 95% of the folks on here and I have managed to be involved with ANY class I wanted to, from 4 Worrell 1000s and all the spinnaker mods before they were stock to A cats with their evolution.And if I recall you were the douche' who wanted to penalize me with a stiffer portsmouth handicap for having sponsor stickers on my sail, while my true sponsor was my credit card. I don't have the time or effort for y'all's whining. Don't like it, don't sail it, that's why I sold my F-18 and Mystere 4.3.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #279228
05/28/15 10:29 AM
05/28/15 10:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I guarantee you I have less money than 95% of the folks on here


Probably, but Timbo's pretty close... Maybe more money, but more sucking noise out of his pocket (4 kids, wifey and a frikkin' herd of expensive horses). Maybe Karl the second with his cabinet-shop-mahal.

But certainly you've "showed up" much more than they...


Sail what you want, but don't complain when fleet sizes are small. You want big fleet sailing? Join a big fleet....

Perhaps consider Big Fleet, Fast, Cheap... Pick any two.


Jay

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #279230
05/28/15 11:12 AM
05/28/15 11:12 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Todd

YOU can own and SAIL any damn thing you want to.. However, Sailboat RACING is pretty socialist... If you don't agree with 10 others on a set of rules.... you don't have a class.. Its a SOCIAL CONTRACT...

That is the value of buying into a class.... you agree to the contract of class rules.... It protects your investment AND sets your expectations when you go out racing... Most of those old single handed cats survive as race boats BECAUSE they Honor and respect their class rules.... Sailors buy in. You get good turnouts.

Each turn of the development cycle flushes some racers... not a problem when you are growing. So, How fast can you cycle and not flush racers in 2015?

In the two man boats... the N17 doesn't fly. THe Flying Tiger and the N20c do and are available. I bet that there are only 5 of these in North America and the impact on the F18 fleet is invisible. Not much of a problem.

And then The US A Class decided that International class rules did not work for them and made their own new class last week...
(Lets cycle FASTER....)
(THAT Sucks if you just dropped 25K on the latest ISAF legal DNA flying A class 6 weeks ago.)

So... you now have
ISAF A CLASS Floater ... which HONORS rule 8....No flying boats.
ISAF A class Flyer .... which uses the loopholes in rule 8.... Flying boats.
USA A Class Flyer ... which allows any thing by dumping rule 8 altogether. ... one of a kind flying regattas.

So ... Sail what you want... The A class is cycling like a spinning top...

Time will tell.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Mark Schneider] #279231
05/28/15 11:16 AM
05/28/15 11:16 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Todd

YOU can own and SAIL any damn thing you want to.. However, Sailboat RACING is pretty socialist... If you don't agree with 10 others on a set of rules.... you don't have a class.. Its a SOCIAL CONTRACT...

That is the value of buying into a class.... you agree to the contract of class rules.... It protects your investment AND sets your expectations when you go out racing... Most of those old single handed cats survive as race boats BECAUSE they Honor and respect their class rules.... Sailors buy in. You get good turnouts.

Each turn of the development cycle flushes some racers... not a problem when you are growing. So, How fast can you cycle and not flush racers in 2015?

In the two man boats... the N17 doesn't fly. THe Flying Tiger and the N20c do and are available. I bet that there are only 5 of these in North America and the impact on the F18 fleet is invisible. Not much of a problem.

And then The US A Class decided that International class rules did not work for them and made their own new class last week...
(Lets cycle FASTER....)
(THAT Sucks if you just dropped 25K on the latest ISAF legal DNA flying A class 6 weeks ago.)

So... you now have
ISAF A CLASS Floater ... which HONORS rule 8....No flying boats.
ISAF A class Flyer .... which uses the loopholes in rule 8.... Flying boats.
USA A Class Flyer ... which allows any thing by dumping rule 8 altogether. ... one of a kind flying regattas.

So ... Sail what you want... The A class is cycling like a spinning top...

Time will tell.


Well..ok, but that whole A-cat rule thing was a case study in poor initial presentation. After consideration of the thoughtful and polite feedback they initially received (/sarcasm), Bailey further clarified the NA position as one where they aren't striking parts of the A-class rules for North America but are allowing boats to race on the course with a-cats at non-internationally sanctioned events that fit the a-class rule with the exception of rule 8.

The actual difference of these positions on reality is very slight while the political implications are drastically different. An a-class is still an a-class. An a-class that ignores the recent rule 8 modifications is technically no longer an a-cat but is allowed to race with the a-cats at most of the north american events.


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Jake] #279232
05/28/15 11:25 AM
05/28/15 11:25 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Nicely framed Jake.

Here is the money question.... Do you think the A class will be changing their rules in the future?.... and are you willing to buy a current design based on your tea leave reading?

I might add. Mischa Hermschck is on the record as stating the rules will have to change in a year or so...

The facts are that floaters are not racing flyers... except on the paper score sheet.


Last edited by Mark Schneider; 05/28/15 11:33 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Mark Schneider] #279233
05/28/15 12:08 PM
05/28/15 12:08 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Nicely framed Jake.

Here is the money question.... Do you think the A class will be changing their rules in the future?.... and are you willing to buy a current design based on your tea leave reading?

I might add. Mischa Hermschck is on the record as stating the rules will have to change in a year or so...

The facts are that floaters are not racing flyers... except on the paper score sheet.



Personally, I think there is no turning back and the a-cat will be a genuine foiling class in the very near future. The foiling restrictions in rule 8 go away and the sea-huggers will go the way of the woodie a-cats. They'll hang around for a while, people that enjoy sailing them will continue to do so for a while until the lack of critical mass is quickly reduced to the point that there are just a handful of folks hanging in there old-school (2-3 years). Other folks will start hacking at their current a-cats as their budgets allow and we get a third crappy portsmouth rating for another type of a cat. The sailors have really already voted with the votes that really count...just look at how many new foilers are out there already that work within all the complications that is rule 8.

Whether or not class numbers go up or down is anybodies guess - but I would wager that after an initial period of decline that the class numbers will grow until they realign with the overall attendance trend of the sailing sport whatever that might be at the time.

As far as my own boat preference, I really enjoyed sailing an a-cat when I did but I'm not in the market for another single hander. If I was, I would need to probably find a way to fund $15,000 to $25,000 to restart life as a foiling a-cater and that would probably only get me something that I would need to start cutting on. I could do it, but I'm not sure it's worth that much to me when I find nearly as much enjoyment club racing my 1983 J22...but that's just me influenced by having the pleasure of sailing with some really great people as crew.


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279234
05/28/15 12:12 PM
05/28/15 12:12 PM
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Columbia South Carolina, USA
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Jake, your last statement("An a-class that ignores the recent rule 8 modifications is technically no longer an a-cat but is allowed to race with the a-cats at most of the north american events") sounds a lot like what Hobie did for years(allowing only Hobies to race in HCA races) until the numbers of one-off, PHRF ect outgrew the Hobie Class boats in some regions and change had to occur for regattas to sustain themselves.
Now, was the A Class fleet fading away and needed this boost of development? I would say no, but sailing changed around the class. When the AC started foiling, and GB, Phantom, and NACRA all started to fly, then the class who is known as the development class for cats and really much of sailing, well it had to change as well.
Does F18 or any other class have to change like that to sustain itself? No, the A cat is a different animal, almost apples to oranges in many aspects.
Mark, I think the A class has to continually change its rules as a development class. they almost need a limited set of rules, and let the true developments start happening.
IMHO you either have the rules and live by them, or you open it up and learn what the future holds

Last edited by dave mosley; 05/28/15 12:14 PM.

The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: dave mosley] #279236
05/28/15 12:20 PM
05/28/15 12:20 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by dave mosley
Jake, your last statement("An a-class that ignores the recent rule 8 modifications is technically no longer an a-cat but is allowed to race with the a-cats at most of the north american events") sounds a lot like what Hobie did for years(allowing only Hobies to race in HCA races) until the numbers of one-off, PHRF ect outgrew the Hobie Class boats in some regions and change had to occur for regattas to sustain themselves.
Now, was the A Class fleet fading away and needed this boost of development? I would say no, but sailing changed around the class. When the AC started foiling, and GB, Phantom, and NACRA all started to fly, then the class who is known as the development class for cats and really much of sailing, well it had to change as well.
Does F18 or any other class have to change like that to sustain itself? No, the A cat is a different animal, almost apples to oranges in many aspects.
Mark, I think the A class has to continually change its rules as a development class. they almost need a limited set of rules, and let the true developments start happening.
IMHO you either have the rules and live by them, or you open it up and learn what the future holds


I would compare this more to the Moth class (that was initially a water-borne dingy class) than anything that's happened in the past with the HCA. It's about a bunch of guys that want to experiment and push the limits vs. the folks who are concerned about how such a fast paced change would impact the current class vs. the folks that are very change-resistant.

(hmmm...maybe you could relate that to the HCA - but I still stand by my initial statement...the driving forces/motivations were very different).


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279237
05/28/15 12:23 PM
05/28/15 12:23 PM
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Posts: 1,249
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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what I meant was the change is inevitable, the holder-on'ers will eventually lose out to the development.
What will be interesting is when the next technological advancement happens that renders foiling obsolete and slow, then what?
too rich for my pockets


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: dave mosley] #279239
05/28/15 01:39 PM
05/28/15 01:39 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Dave you wrote
Quote
IMHO you either have the rules and live by them, or you open it up and learn what the future holds


So rule 8 was... NO FLYING BOATS.... I bought a boat..
just after I got a boat...they decided to change to the current rule 8... same idea... no flying boats... and make the rule technical. I voted against that change because I foresaw the current situation.

So, rather then honor the rule... half the class exploited the rule and boats now fly.

Last week... the US class forshadowed the push to change the rules again... to open them up.

Umm... what rules would you count on???

The proper thing to have done was to split the class into divisions... floaters and flyers and allow the floaters to honor rule 8.... No flying... and the flyers to dump rule 8 as the US now wants to do.... Had this happened at the last worlds.. everyone would be happy.

AS i noted... the Hobie 14 still has a North Americans and remains an ISAF class...


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279240
05/28/15 01:40 PM
05/28/15 01:40 PM
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mikekrantz Offline
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When the A-class weight changed from 200lbs to 165 lbs - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the "Bendy" mast came out - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the "C" foils came out - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the new foilers arrived - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When Rule 8 is dropped - that was going to be then of the A-Class

The last two NA's have been the largest ever, and the worlds are consistently drawing over 100 boats.

The sky is falling....

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