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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Jake] #284347
12/20/16 03:28 PM
12/20/16 03:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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I would agree with Jake's position that discrepancies don't always point to fraud.

My particular district had something like 1400+ voters cast ballots, and many of those ballot "styles" were multiple pages (front and back) because of the number of questions on the ballot as well as the english/spanish translations of each question.

So, roughly 2800 ballot "pages" were run through the machine (not counting the "provisional ballots" which are counted separately).

We also have to consider that more than a handful of voters screwed up their ballot (didn't fill out the bubble, marked areas that the scanner couldn't read, etc) and had to "spoil" one page and get a new copy.

Heck, some voters intentionally did not fill out anything on their ballots. There is even a procedure to count those blank ballots...

Each of these "issues" has a corrective action (and documentation) which helps prevent or at least explain any difference between the number of voters and the number of ballots cast.

Is all of this perfect? I doubt it. But does this constitute "fraud", or will this difference be enough to swing an election by 2 million votes? I suspect the answer is "no".


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #284348
12/20/16 03:31 PM
12/20/16 03:31 PM
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Naples, FL
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I guess I should also strongly urge those folks who feel the election process is "rigged" actually volunteer to be a voting station worker.

I know I had to complete almost 40 hours of training for the local election, and then re-certify for each election after that. Through this effort, I gained respect for the way our state operates the election process.


Jay

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #284367
12/21/16 08:04 AM
12/21/16 08:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
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Panama City, Florida
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I miss the "dimpled chad".



Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #284369
12/21/16 09:19 AM
12/21/16 09:19 AM
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Jay, I fully appreciate your effort to make our democracy work.

I don't know if this is universal, but where I live, our ballots are huge, and have to be filled in by hand (ovals), then scanned at a central location.

I don't know why, but there is no curtain around the scanner, and for as long as I recall (except this year), some volunteer tells us HE has to put the ballot into the scanner (and of course he reads the votes first).

That just don't seem right...

Mike

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: brucat] #284371
12/21/16 10:31 AM
12/21/16 10:31 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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In Md.... We now are back to the scanning system because it provides a hard record for recounts. You put your ballot in a folder and then open the folder and push the ballot into the scanner. The poll worker supervises you pushing the ballots into the scanner. You have to do it tho. If you think somebody can read your ballot between the time you move it from the sleave and stuff it into the scanner.... well. I would ask you to provide some evidence. Perhaps the poll worker who stuffs your ballot into the machine can record your vote.. but again... I would need some evidence.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Mark Schneider] #284374
12/21/16 11:33 AM
12/21/16 11:33 AM
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Naples, FL
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The process here is similar, Mark. Only the voter handles his/her ballot. If the machine kicks it back, the poll worker is only there to provide instructions.

If a ballot has to be touched by anyone other than the voter, a requirement is to have two workers (one from each party) assist/observe.

In addition to all this, there are up to 4 poll watchers (2 from each political party in my case) who watch like a hawk and call the elections office to report any discrepancies.

Finally (and I think I said this before), the machines are audited which means the ballots are removed, hand-counted and the scores are compared against the machine readout. All this is done in the presence of multiple witnesses from all political parties and/or a public meeting.


Jay

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #284377
12/21/16 12:44 PM
12/21/16 12:44 PM
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South Carolina
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wow, SC more technically advanced for once. We have digital voting machines - you enter your vote into the digital machine with no paper ballot. Staff at a desk record your name into the log book and give you a red tag. You wait at a short line for a voting machine to come available. Another polling place staffer walks you to that machine where he/she inserts a large red block/dongle to enable the machine for your vote. When done, you just leave and they remove the red dongle.

Now, drawbacks? I don't think you could technically do a recount other than compare the logbook to the number of votes the machines totaled. You would also need to go to some really great lengths to make sure that machine (and however it sends it's data) can't be tampered with.


Jake Kohl
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Jake] #284387
12/21/16 07:51 PM
12/21/16 07:51 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Jake, MD had those machines 2 years ago... but the best practice study prompted the state to sell those machines and go back to scanners and paper ballots... Handicap access was provided in other ways.... That is what got lost in the reversion to scanners.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Mark Schneider] #284389
12/21/16 09:01 PM
12/21/16 09:01 PM
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Ventucky Red Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake, MD had those machines 2 years ago... but the best practice study prompted the state to sell those machines and go back to scanners and paper ballots...


Did South Carolina buy them?

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Ventucky Red] #284391
12/21/16 09:18 PM
12/21/16 09:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
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Greenville SC
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Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake, MD had those machines 2 years ago... but the best practice study prompted the state to sell those machines and go back to scanners and paper ballots...


Did South Carolina buy them?


Seems they have been around a decade or
So.

I did not know there was still as many other areas still using paper. Our machines in my mind make hacking a possibility, though very very remote. I'm not crazy about the idea about having no physical record of my vote.

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: bacho] #284407
12/22/16 09:23 AM
12/22/16 09:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
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I really like the way Florida has been doing it with the paper. I just wouldn't trust a strictly data-driven system. Data can easily go *poof* during a malfunction and it's gone forever. I also feel it can be easily manipulated if hacked. It's much harder to manipulate hard paper with the oversight they have set up. I think their check-in procedures are pretty spot on as well. You have to be on their list of registered voters and show ID. I'm sure there are still bad players who can abuse the system this way, but it is much more difficult than simply jumping on a bus and riding from polling station to polling station.


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Redtwin] #284413
12/22/16 12:47 PM
12/22/16 12:47 PM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by Redtwin
I really like the way Florida has been doing it with the paper. I just wouldn't trust a strictly data-driven system. Data can easily go *poof* during a malfunction and it's gone forever. I also feel it can be easily manipulated if hacked. It's much harder to manipulate hard paper with the oversight they have set up. I think their check-in procedures are pretty spot on as well. You have to be on their list of registered voters and show ID. I'm sure there are still bad players who can abuse the system this way, but it is much more difficult than simply jumping on a bus and riding from polling station to polling station.


I'm still a little lost on the ID requirement. You are either a registered voter on the list or you aren't. If you aren't on the list, you can't vote. If you are on the list and already voted, you can't vote. Only if you are on the list in your precinct and have not registered a vote can you vote again. It would be really difficult to leverage that to your advantage on any significant scale.


Jake Kohl
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #284419
12/22/16 03:13 PM
12/22/16 03:13 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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The ID requirement stops someone from voting fraudulently as a dead voter... IE the recently dead who have not been purged from the voting roles.

The 1960 election is mythologized as thousands of dead voters swinging the election to Kennedy from Nixon in Chicago. This was driven by the Daley Democratic machine who made the levers churn by using their machine. The republicans are hyping the risk of the dead voting to provide a reason for ID restrictions that suppress minority vote. The issue is not presenting an ID... its presenting one of the approved photo ID's which are pricey to get. The benefit of course is that it suppresses vote in the urban areas where "THOSE" voters are.

At the end of the day.. you are correct that it is really difficult to leverage the dead voting. Truth be told... its much easier to send the oldest and most likely to malfunction machines to the areas where you want to suppress vote.. Waiting in line for 6 hours can be the norm in some areas. The impact of voter ID laws happen well before the voting period... It raises the bar for voters so that they don't even try to re register after a change of address, life status, etc (money, time, headache, confusion, etc)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #284428
12/22/16 07:26 PM
12/22/16 07:26 PM
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I didn't mean to imply that the worker reading my ballot at the scanner was attempting to commit fraud in any way. But, it leaves a very unpleasant impression (far too nosey for why should be a secret process).

One year, the guy actually took a moment to stop and read it, I guess trying to read it as it was being pulled into the scanner was too much of a challenge...

We don't get folders or sheaths, just a ballot. I suppose anyone in the area with good eyes could read it, not just the worker in that position.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 12/22/16 09:02 PM. Reason: Spelling
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Mark Schneider] #284441
12/23/16 09:26 AM
12/23/16 09:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
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Greenville SC
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The ID requirement stops someone from voting fraudulently as a dead voter... IE the recently dead who have not been purged from the voting roles.

The 1960 election is mythologized as thousands of dead voters swinging the election to Kennedy from Nixon in Chicago. This was driven by the Daley Democratic machine who made the levers churn by using their machine. The republicans are hyping the risk of the dead voting to provide a reason for ID restrictions that suppress minority vote. The issue is not presenting an ID... its presenting one of the approved photo ID's which are pricey to get. The benefit of course is that it suppresses vote in the urban areas where "THOSE" voters are.

At the end of the day.. you are correct that it is really difficult to leverage the dead voting. Truth be told... its much easier to send the oldest and most likely to malfunction machines to the areas where you want to suppress vote.. Waiting in line for 6 hours can be the norm in some areas. The impact of voter ID laws happen well before the voting period... It raises the bar for voters so that they don't even try to re register after a change of address, life status, etc (money, time, headache, confusion, etc)



An approved photo ID is a pricey venture?

I don't believe in large scale fraud, but I also have a hard time believing that an appropriate ID is such a burden. In fact I hardly see how it's practical to get through life these days without one.

Last edited by bacho; 12/23/16 09:30 AM.
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: bacho] #284459
12/24/16 12:54 AM
12/24/16 12:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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My drivers license is my only photo id and it costs $140 per two years. (State went on a user fee binge under Erlich.

What other state approved photo ID do you have in your wallet AND that is readily available. (Oh and its 20 bucks to get a copy of a birth certificate for any of these things... .... so if you need a birth certificate to vote... this is all known as a poll tax)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #284466
12/24/16 07:23 AM
12/24/16 07:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
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Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Hmm, a DMV issued photo ID (not a drivers license) is free in this state to anyone over 17. Must provide proof of identity, citizenship and residency in this state.

http://www.scdmvonline.com/dmvnew/default.aspx?n=identification_cards


Looks like the same thing would cost you $24 every 8 years. Free to seniors. Again I don't see this as a huge burden.

http://www.dmv.org/md-maryland/id-cards.php


I hardly see it as a "poll tax" these are all things that are very useful in everyday life.

Last edited by bacho; 12/24/16 07:31 AM.
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Mark Schneider] #284504
12/25/16 02:16 PM
12/25/16 02:16 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
My drivers license is my only photo id and it costs $140 per two years. (State went on a user fee binge under Erlich.

What other state approved photo ID do you have in your wallet AND that is readily available. (Oh and its 20 bucks to get a copy of a birth certificate for any of these things... .... so if you need a birth certificate to vote... this is all known as a poll tax)


wow! I've never lived anywhere were the drivers license required fees like that or that much renewal...MY SC license has been valid for 10 years and I think there's a $20 fee associated with it or something.


Jake Kohl
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #284507
12/25/16 04:10 PM
12/25/16 04:10 PM
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Northfield Mn
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I want to say seven years and $35 for renewal here in Minnesota.


I'm boatless.
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Jake] #284514
12/25/16 11:45 PM
12/25/16 11:45 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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USER FEES... are my states republican way of cutting taxes but maintaining the revenue. We invented the flush tax... to pay for waste treatment plants and then applied it to septic owners.... Lots of noise about that one.. but... all in all it worked so... the next admin was democratic and created the Rain tax to pay for the EPA consent decree to mange rain water runoff waste water into the bay. So, the next admin promised to kill the rain tax... and pay for the consent decree... though general revenue. So we come full circle... at the end of the day... you have to pay for things.... what you call it... is marketing.

So... charge anything for a photo id... that you require for voting.. its a poll tax. Now ... how you market it... well


crac.sailregattas.com
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