Hi Folks:

I have a few questions about the mainsheet systems that you are using on your 16’s. I have the old Seaway 5:1 and it’s seen better days. I want to upgrade to a new system this spring. I sail alone 90% of the time, don’t race in sanctioned events, and I have young teenagers that want to learn to sail and have not been strong enough to handle the Seaway 5:1.

Questions)

1)I have looked at 2 systems – the Harken low profile 6:1 from Catsailor (thanks Rick!) for 258.00 and the Harken Carbo Air system at $339.00. Is there a big difference between these 2 systems? I understand the more expensive system is load sensitive, and I have seen it in the store. Is it worth the extra cash?

2) I believe the 6:1, 7:1 and 8:1 systems use the same base unit (H194 or the Harken 2632) with beckets or blocks attached. Should I purchase the 7:1 or 8:1 system? (only 6 or 7 dollars more according to the adds in Catsailor?) Can you remove a pulley from a quad unit to make it a triple, or do you have to purchase a separate triple block if you want to go back to a 6:1?

Thanks!

Mac

Beckets aren't necessarily that easy to attach. You can add a block to the base of a 6:1 to make it 7:1, and probably your best option, just in case you and your kids get the idea to go check out the fun at a sanctioned event.

6:1 is all you will ever need on the 16. Going with more purchase makes it too hard to sheet out.

Get the H194 lower and the Carbo upper H2640. Standard on new Hobie 16's.

H194 Harken List: $173.25
H2640 Harken List: $85.20

We do not recommend the Carbo ratchet lower. It is a PITA to adjust the jaw angles.

Thanks Matt and John - This is exactly the info that I need.

Cheers,

Mac

how would the line run with this? I am confused because I would love to increase the purchase on my 6.0 (6.1) but don't have any beckets on the blocks now and am not interested in spending 400$ to get new blocks.

In other words, to have a convertable 6:1/7:1 the upper (triple) block would need to have a becket. Add a standup block, mounted through the hardware that attaches the main sheet cleat, to your lower block. Your cleat is on the bottom, you add the extra block on top of the "plate" that supports the cleat. You're spending for an upper triple w/becket and one small block only.

Another option is the new "carbo" triple as the upper, and instead of buying with a becket, run the tail of the main sheet through the hole in the center of the blocks and dead end, in effect same as w/becket, but maybe a few more bucks.

Matt,

Are both the ratchmatic and the ratchet carbo lowers a pain? What makes them harder to adjust? Isn't it a case of set it and forget it?

I am looking at getting the ratchmatic system with beckets on both top and bottom with tripple on top.
http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant...AR2630&Category_Code=57MMRATCHMATICS

And

http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant...duct_Code=HAR2605&Category_Code=57MM

Thanks
Sam

I think the Ratchamatics are awesome myself and use them on every boat I have had since they came out.
On my F16 I am using the 8:1 Ratchamatic with 1/4" mainsheet. Sounds small,but with the 8:1 purchase it is easy to sheet and it also runs out very well when you ease the sheet.

I know in days of yore, we may have used as large as 7/16" line, and for sure 3/8" But with the new advanced blocks it is really not necessary and smaller line works really well.

I even use 1/4" on the Wave. Great for the puffs and when wheeling around the weather mark. Others are having to pull their sheets through the block, while mine just flys out and the sail is set within a boat length for downwind.
Rick

The jaw angle adjustment on the original ratchets is far simpler. They have not found a way to do this on the carbo version. Maybe not as big a deal if you set it and forget it, but I like to change the angle for some conditions. If it is really blowing, I may want to get the blocks to release easier, so place the jaws higher. It is personal preference. I see no advantage to the carbo lower. That is why we use the standard triple lower and carbo upper in combination.

The ratchamatic lower is a nightmare! My son had a new 16 at the Carnac Eurocat regatta last year and spent the whole event trying to get the cleats at the right angle, got all stressed about it and didn't enjoy the event at all!
We spent some time with little plastic wedges and have eventually got it right now [one setting for all winds]
For some reason, this flashy/expensive piece of kit does not hold the cleat at the right angle.

Rick, are you talking about the hexaratchet that Matt is talking about

http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/scpdinw1.showProd?B4RPMEB9Y976M0

or the ratchmatic

http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/scpdinw1.ShowProd?409Z56LC83P4A

or maybe something completely different like the carbo ratchet?

http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/scpdinw1.ShowProd?409Z56LC6W5AM

It seems that the breaking loads on the carbo stuff is a fair bit higher if that is of any value.


Thanks
Sam

I like the adjustments on the 194 Hexaratchet triple...

You just ease out the screw in the slot on either side. Make the adjustement up or down and re-tighten. It is easy to see you are in the 1 to whatever position.


I do not like the adjustment on the 2630 Carbo triple...


You have to back out the center screw to get both sides of the system out of its indents. You then move and re-seat the side plates. Then tighten the screw. There is no good way to see how far you moved it and it is a disaster if you unscrew the thing too far.

The 2141 would be even harder to deal with.

On the strenght end: I'm no weakling, and when it really blowing, and I've been out a long time I struggle with sheating. I have a 6:1 harken system w/ 3/8 sheat. Most of this is probably because I tend to go out in heavy winds, and it all on lakes, or the Mississippi. Lot's of puffs and I never cleat the main. Just food for thought if you concerned with the strenght issue.

Do you turn on the ratchet?

6:1 is all you need .

We have at least four women 130 and under that sail their boats in good breeze and thats all they use.

There is a good chance that you have the mast raked too for forward if you cannot sheet in.

Remember, the more purchase you have in you main block system, the more line it will take to sheet in and longer it will take to sheet out. 6:1 is a good balance between the mechanical advantage you want the the ability to sheet out in a reasonable amount of time.

Ok, the 6:1 or 7:1 is probably all you need for purchase, but what about the breaking strenght of the blocks them selves?

model h194

Shackle pin dia. (in) 1/4
SWL (lb) 500
Breaking strength (lb) 2000
Use with 004 - 5:1 / 048 - 6:1

verses the h2630 at
SWL (lb) 1800
Breaking strength (lb) 4500
Holding power w/180 degree wrap 50 lb (23 kg) 10:1

I assume the SWL is the swivle breaking strenght?

Is this an issue on a h16?

Sam

No

SWL = sustained working load if I remember correctly. You can really put the blocks under these loads and over whithout worrying about breaking them. Maximum breaking loads are typically alot higher. If passed swl you'll just wear the blocks down quicker which is still many many years. In effect SWL doesn't mean much.

Wouter

Safe working load limit is more precise but the concept is the same. The 2000 lb breaking point has been derated by a factor of 4 to give you a "safe" capacity of 500 lbs.

What I have yet to figure out is if I could lift an 80 pound sack of cement with just a line in my hand. If I can, then a 7:1 would exceed the swl but still come nowhere near the breaking strength.

Ok - so what are most of you using for a mainsheet - I've read 1/4", 3/8" and 7/16". I have 7/16, but if I buy a 194 with a 2640 upper block the max line size is 3/8". Will the 3/8 line run through the 2640 freely? What line type do you recommend for the average sailor?

I'll throw another size in, we just purchased a 5/16" main sheet. Use a line designed specifically for main sheets. Some of the low stretch (stiff) lines will not wrap around a smaller diameter block as easily as a softer version. In other words it is too stiff to properly grip the blocks. I think you'll find the advantage of easier use in reducing diameter only. Be very careful (or ask an expert/retailer) before purchasing a "high tech" line.

Sorry for no "specific" answer, there are a lot of different brands and "families" available.

3/8" is the standard line on new Hobie 16s. It runs through the 194/2640 well. Smaller is harder to hold. As mentioned by "flatlander18", get a line designed for sheets. Usually a dacron (fuzzy) line is easiest to hold for less overall fatigue.

You can turn off the ratchet? You mean on one of these?

Yeah, it's the little black slide on the side.

Mainsheets:

New England Ropes - Salsa line

New England Ropes
8 mm = 5/16"; 9 mm = 3/8"

Maffioli Swiftcord


You can buy this in a number of places, but Hall Spars USA is the US distributor. Hall Spars

OK Rick and Matt - does the 2630 have more holding power than the 194 with the ratchet on? I keep reading about it having a 10:1 holding power. The same with the upper blocks -2640 vs the 153 - the 2640 looks lighter with a lower profile, but is there any difference in the holding power of these blocks?

Ratchets have always had an on and off switch. Generally you use the ratchet in higher winds. You turn it off for better sensitivity in lighter air. If you are sitting on the rail, the sheets may not pay out fast enough, so you turn it off. In higher winds the ratchet helps hold the sheet, but still pays out if you let it go.

I don't think there is a difference between one Harken ratchet and the next model, but more purchase will have more "holding power".

Just to clarify, when you have a 6:1 purchase if you pull on the line with 100 lbs of force the system exerts 600 lbs of force on the sail. I know this is obvious but you never know questions people will not ask.

So, the "holding power" everyone speaks of is really what you feel on the line.

Also, the shape of the first pulley the line goes into will determine how much tension you need to keep on the sheet to hold it into place with the ratchet. As well as the torque the ratchet mechanism is rated for. I know on my system (I don't know the part numbers) the first pully "grabs" the line a little bit so I only need to keep enough tension on the line to seat it in the pulley when the ratchet is on.

I just wnated to make sure everyone is talking about the same thing.

Thanks Matt and Nick - Let's say you are out on the wire in a blow. Will the carbo unit (2629) be easier on the arms in terms of holding the sheet and not cleating in, than the Hexa (194) block? Harken claims the carbo has 10:1 holding power @ 180 degree wrap. I haven't seen any claims for the 194, but it may just be a marketing ploy for the newer carbo blocks.

As far as I know, the design of the ratchet sheave is unchanged, so the "holding power" of the sheave should be the same. The benifit to an increased hold would be up for debate and personal preference... not critical. The difference is more one of weight. The Carbos are lighter. The critical difference to me is the ability to make adjustments to the jaw angle. The carbo ratchets are a pain is that respect.

Ok, as I understand it, the 2629 and 2630(becket) are ratchmatic (load sensing ratchet) no need to be able to reach the block to turn on off the ratchet. Yes carbo is lighter but also SHOULD be easier to use.
From the harken website
http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/SCCYSPW1

- Ratchet senses load and engages automatically
- Shifts seamlessly between ratchet and light air modes
- Adjustable ratchet engagement
- Free release under light load

the 194 and 2194 (hardest to adjust the angle on) have a on/off switch

This is why I am going with this block price is only a small percentage more.

Sam

GREAT THREAD!!!!!!

Now, this may sound somewhat lame, but, are there "standard" line colors for main and jib sheets? I am thinking of a red/black color theme for my H16. I am ALMOST more interested in line color than quality. I really want to use as close to solid black for the main sheet and red for Jib.

So it is either the Maffioli mentioned here or the New england Ropes Sta-Set series. I like the Sta-set because it looks cooler.

What say all you sailers?

Thanks
Sam

There is no "standard" main/jib sheet color. For a long time (until recently), Hobie Cat used a red, fuzzy line for the main and a blue one for the jib. I think they were Sampson or Yale brand line (Matt M. can say for sure).

If you're choosing between the Swiftcord and the Sta-set, I'd go with the Swiftcord. Your hands will thank you. Sta-set has a hard finish and is stiffer. Swiftcord is soft and will run through blocks without hockling (twisting up).

With that Information, now all I have to do is wait for the Tax refund to hit the account and than with a few clicks here and few clicks there here a click there a click wait few days and the boat has a few new parts.

And that can't be a bad thing.

Sam

PS. Anybody looking for a really old (32 years)set of seaway main blocks??

Sam - I think the 194's are easier to adjust the angle on. From Matt's previous post:

Mac05,

I agree:

194 - easiest to adjust angle - have to touch block to turn on/off ratchet

2600 series harder to adjust angle - (should be) auto on/off load sensing ratchet w/ adjustable sensing.

2100 series ratchets - seems to be Major Pain to adjust angle and have to touch block to turn on off ratchet.

Since I will probably not be racing and more of the set it and forget it type, the 2600 series seems be the best bet.

If it were a matter of $60 - $70 differance, I would go with the 194 but at at less than $40 diff, I like the ratchmatic.

Now, is there a need for the top blocks to be ratcheted(ratchmatic)?
What would be gained or lost?

Thanks
Sam

The ratchet adds drag to the line holding power. I can't imagine the need to have two ratchet sheaves. Too much drag possibly. You also risk having the ratchets on or off at differing times. I would rather have control over when they are on or off.

Hobie cat has used a variety of lines over the years. Curently the lines are Marlow:

<Excel Marstron is the perfect lightweight floating mainsheet for small dinghies. Excel Marstron has a braided core and smooth profile 16 plait cover of non-water absorbing floating Marstron. The smooth cover provides greater feel and faster running through blocks.>>

8mm Mainsheet and 6mm Jib Sheet.

Having an upper and lower ratchmatic will negate the need for the cleat totally. It is sometimes used be serious racing crews on modern boats to allow constant fine tuning of the mainsheet with very little line pull when not trimming. The same trick with double auto ratchets is used on spinnaker sheet, almost universally by now and it works great there. No trouble with ratchets turning off and on a t different times as they simple won't do that. The top ratchet will always engage before the lower one and disengage later.

The difference in sustained static holding power is massive. You go from about 1:6 on the partly wrapped lower ratchets to 1:60 of the combo. It will almost feel as it the sheet is in a cleat. But when you push the sheet towards the blocks then the line will run through the mainsheet system rather quickly. You'll have to use AUTO ratchet for both blocks otherwise it won't work well.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter,(sort of)

I thought I was ready to order, but now I have to think about this part also,(probably not too long tho).

If I wanted a quad block on top, how would you set that up with the ratchmatic? Harken does not have a quad or trip ratchmatic without a cam, they do have single and double. A trip none ratchmatic with a single side by side some how?

Maybe I missed the quad alltogether.

Thanks
Sam

Don't do it...

Keep it simple. 6:1 with the standard hexaratchet system in the lower cleating block. Triple lower and triple upper. It works.

I agree with Matt on this one. A bit overkill to it otherwise on the H16.

Wouter

You don't want to over-complicated an otherwise simple boat. You may have heard of the KISS axiom: Keep It Simple Stupid.

When you add complicated parts to a mechanism you are asking for it to fail at an inopportune time. Unless you really need the "upgraded" feature it is not worth the cost or risk of failure.

I understand the need to have neat gadgets. I am a techie myself.

Like I said, I only needed to think on this for a very short time. I live by KISS (most of the time). This time I will keep it simple also.

Thanks for all of your input.
Sam

Have to get new blocks and sheet as mine got lost/stolen???
Lent some Nacra F18 blocks which I had to modify (too high...)
Have seen so many reactions already that I'm rather confused. Sailing quite often alone and with less mast rake (like a neutral steering behaviour as I only got 2 hands...) also with rather much wind the 6:1 is on the edge. Although I like to think I'm having quite a physical condition I have my limits when sailing for a couple of hours..

Read your (Rick White) comment stating you like the 8:1 option with a lite mainsheet. See quote below:



Might enable to sail longer and with les/no use of the clamps? Checked some sites but cannot find the 8:1 blocks you are refering to. I assume both blocks have 4 sheaves on a row (low profile required) and the lower with cleat as well.

Do you use the 1/4" mainsheet for the full length or id you keep the last 3 m' (12') the original thickness? And what length do you use?

Can somebody (Rick ??) give me some help?

Thanks in advance / greeting from Europe

Eddie #99173 [1992]

Here is the URL listing all the sheeting systems.
http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=331
and be sure to check both pages.

You can find this by clicking on Blocks in the left index, then Sheeting Systems.
Good luck,
Rick

Hey everybody, I have a Hobie 14 Turbo that still has the old 4 to 1 Seaway blocks, and when it's really blowing I have a hard time getting block to block (must be getting old). So, I'm thinking about a new sheeting system, my question is what should I go with, find a sixteen owner who is upgrading their 5 to 1 system and buy their old Seaways (cheapest), buy a new 5 to 1 low profile Harken setup, or buy a new 6 to 1 low profile Harken setup (most expensive)? Maybe try what Rick was talking about and go with 1/4" or maybe 5/16" on a 6 to 1 setup would be the best or would 6 to 1 be overkill on a 14? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for any advice.

I used the advice from all and purchased the 194/153 6:1 combo for my H16. I really like the adjustability of the cleating angle because when the kids want to sail I can quickly move the angle up to make it easier for them to pop the cleat. 6:1 is all you need with a properly working ratchet system. I had to go down a sheet size so that it would run through the blocks quickly in a blow. I am now using 44 feet of 3/8" and it's excellent.

Mac

After this last weekend, I have to strongly dissagree with the PITA, It took me all of 4 minutes to adjust the angle the first time and maybe 3 minutes the second time on the 2630. I did have to do it twice because the first time everybody suggested go 3 notches, when 2 was really enough.

Yes they are more expensive then the non-carbo, but the ratchmatic is real nice.

and with a becket on both top and bottom, I could rig it 6,7 or 8(w/added pully):1

Right now it is 7:1 and again, 46 or 48 feet of 9mm red Maffioli Swiftcord

Very very happy.

Sam

As my complete mainsheet go lost / stolen last year I’m still using the set of a fellow catsailer.
Although a great lead indeed I’m getting a little confused now. I’ll try to explain:

My 1992 H16 is more or less standard (I think..). Mats rake I adjust reluctantly. In 5-th position (from below) the steering is neutral which I think is a major advantage – especially when sailing alone. In 4-th or even 3-rd hole she will immediately turn into the wind when releasing the joystick. Added bushes (Hobie Tiger) and new rods in the rudders so play is close to zero now. Rudder blades are in max forward position.
But even in 5-th hole I manage to sail “block to block” quite easily – with a 6:1 configuration. How should I be able to use a 8:1 set (Ricks’ recommendation) as I don’t have enough height available. Is my main sail worn out? I doesn’t look that way. I connect both blocks – to traverse ar and beam – with shackles only, to keep profile as low as possible.

By the way: Mast rake is still a tricky business for me anyway. Maybe I am not sensitive / skilled enough but tacking is not my favourite course. And when the nose dips you’ll loose in most cases anyway. But isn’t that half the thrill?

Hope somebody can give me some advice.

Eddie
The Netherlands
# 99173

Have you looked at the 8:1's? They use the 2.25 blocks adding another sheave to the top block and a small block on the becket of the lower set. Therefore I wouldn't expect the stacked height to be that different.

No need for any more than 6:1 on a 16. Esp if you are single handing alot!!

Another note, new sails and new shrouds are sized to accomodate more rake. If you have long (old) shrouds &/or sails you will not be able to get the rake & rig tension desired.