So, here we are. It’s 2007 and another sailing season of opportunity. We American baby boomers have created a population equaling our 76 million. They are between the ages of seven and twenty-five. What have been or are the activities amongst these “kids”? I’d bet most played soccer at least one season, rode a BMX bicycle and rode a skateboard at least once (or will). Of the older ones how many have rock climbed, mountain biked, canoed/kayaked?



Even though the average work week now takes 47 hours of our lives, leisure time has declined 37% and playstations, ipods and the internet are not just a FAD and we are overweight, don’t get enough exercise and spend too much time watching TV (and on, and on, and on) the following statistics remain.

Outdoor activities played a major role in the lives of the majority of Americans 16 and older. 71.6% of Americans 16 and older participated in at least one human powered activity - a Participant population that is equal to 159 million Americans. Activities that have multiple formats (something for everyone) attracted the largest number of Americans 16 and older during the year:
- Bicycling (Any Type) 85.7 million
- Fishing (Any Type) 80.4 million
- Camping (Any Type) 65.7 million
- Paddlesports (Any Type) 31.8 million

Demographic Profile of Human Powered Outdoor Users Participants
– The majority of overall Participants are male (56%)
– Americans of all ages participate in outdoor activities
– The presence of youth is strong: 26% are between 16 and 24 years old
– The marital status of overall Participants is split between married (52%) and unmarried (48%)
– One-half (50%) of Participants report the presence of children in their household
– Overall Participants report slightly above average affluence--mean household income of $60,000
– The overall Participant population is comprised primarily of Caucasian Americans (79%)

Let’s take the premise that the American boating public is 5% of the population, and 10% of that are sailors. So of the 76 million youth ages 7 to 25 there are 380,000 potential sailors.

May we spend some time talking about developing this?



Car topped and on the water in 15 minutes. How do we keep it simple?

Thanks, from a "pie in the sky guy"

I work in the recreation field, one disturbing trend seen in the industry is a sharp decline in casual recreation participation i.e. a group of kids from the neighborhood getting together and playing a pick-up game of football, soccer, baseball etc. The primary emphasis is falling towards organized youth sports. While this is not necessarily all bad, it does restrict a childs casual and unstructured interaction with his/her peers. So how does this relate to developing a catamaran that would be marketed to kids coming out of opti fleets??

Well when was the last time you saw kids at your local sailing venue sailing just for fun, not being involved in a regatta, or structured sailing program? While there are kids that certainly do this, the numbers are just not great. At the club I sail out of, on the weekends, opti/laser/420 coached practices will draw 50+ boats out on the water, but take away the strucure, and there may be 1 or 2 of the more dedicated High School sailors and that is all.

Until a fleet of youth catamarans can be established and the concept bought into by local sailing organizations, there will be a lot of difficulty creating a market for this boat.

That all being said, I think it's a great idea, but an uphill battle to create. The first step is to expose as many kids as possible to catamarans. Get those kids out of the opti's for a couple hours for a ride. More often than not they will be hooked, and looking for more!

If someone can provide me the line drawings of that cat in a 14' version, I'll start cutting the bulkheads for it tonight.

The small car top Cat has been done before.

I had a chance to sit in a van going to some party with Hobie Sr. back in 99 at Carlton's regatta.
He was asking the people there " how can we get more kids sailing on cats".
He talked about the 10 and 12 foot designs he had worked on without much success.
He was very passionate about getting more kids sailing.
I remember him talking about how it cost almost as much to build a 12ft Cat as it did a 16ft version and that it was very difficult to get parents to buy boats they could not sail.
I don't think the boat is what will make the difference.
It seems that the kids that sail at clubs do so while the parents are having lunch on a big boat they never take out.
The Opti is like the VCR or video game at home. An easy babysitter.
We all need to keep trying to get the kids out on the water.

Looks like something Mom or Dad could sail too.



I'm going on sheer demographic numbers here, not the past. The first baby boomer turned 20 years old in 1968, the last baby boomer turned 20 years old in 1984. I'm not really interested in why based on the past it won't work...we can throw statistics at one another until 2008. So enough on that.

Of merit, to build a boat there are significant base costs. What are the ideas to simplify and keep it cheap?

Maughan,

If it's a 12 footer are you still in?

Folks,
I started prototying a boat like this a while back and even have two half built hulls.
I have been drawn off the project helping to get the Blade F16 and F18 into production in Australia.

Since then I have come up with further simplifications that will keep the craft very simple and straight forward.
Currently I'm working on a new building method that I hope will make building such a boat easier for the handyman than both tortured ply and chined construction and allow a boat to be built from either ply or foam. So when I get back to it I will start fresh using this method.

The idea is to car top the craft so the all up rigged weight has to be under 50kg. It's a rope and stick boat.
They are the only controls. The mainsheet also applies tension to the luff of the sail. Other than mainsheet there is a tiller. That's it. The boat will be easier to rig than a Laser.
The boat is 12ft long and crew weight limited to around 60kg.

If needed it should be able to be sailed in water the kids can stand up in. As it has a free standing rig and with so few fittings and moving parts the cost of construction private or commercial should be quite cheap.

Getting something like this on the water and working is the easy part. Convincing people to build or buy and sail is the challenge.

I believe we should be growing our own crop of sailors instead of leaving it up to the mono guys.

I will be getting back to the project as soon as I have the time to do the prototyping.

Regards,
Phill

Yes, this is the man that you all love to hate !

But bear with me for a moment, afterall there is alot in this concept that originated in my mind. The drawing itself is mine as well.

You'll probably have noticed that the hulls look very similar to the Blade F16 hulls because I ripped those of the F16 drawing I had made weeks earlier.

The idea for this 12 footer came from Phill and he wanted a very simple boat that would be very suited to children and small adults but not look like a bycicle with training wheels.

I remember how despite my love for complex boats I really appreciated the simple and quick setup of my class 5 landyacht. So two things merged. The Blade platform with a class 5 (unstayed) rig of about 6 sq. mtr. area (65 sq. ft.). The idea was to make is really agile boat (like a laser 1) but with a much simple setup that still retained a high efficiency ratio. The laser 1 has a triangular unstayed rig. The class 5's landyacht have a unstayed rig like the lasers as well but with a much more high aspect and therefor much more efficient rig.

Later we found out that the 65 sq. ft. sailarea was very similar to the laser 1 radial rig that is optimized for light weight laser sailors like women and teens. Afterall you'll need to be 80 kg or more to hold down a standard laser-1 rig.

Some development was done on this 12 footer (later coined as F12) but it stalled, F16 and F18 design work did take up alot of time and effort.

So here we are. I still think the basic idea has alot of merit and over the X-mas hollidays (I was fed up with control engineering design work of my more mundane weekly endeavour) I worked some extra portions of this design out. Mostly trying to make the design simpler and easier/cheaper to build.

I believe that if this thing is to fly that it must be really easy to build and ludicrously inexpensive to market.

Like I said the rig is pretty much of a class 5 landyacht and I know that reasonably well. I have measured mast several setups and I think I have the rig sorted out designwise. It also looks like this boat can be rather fast despite its strict emphasis on simplicity if one condition can be satisfied. Overall Lightweightness !

50 kg ready to sail would be perfect ! 60 kg would be acceptable. Higher will be unsufficient as then it requires more sailarea and heavier component thus leading direction into a weight trap.

The mast itself looks to be buildable in aluminium (out of standard round sections) for 8.5 kg. The (sleeved) sail and boom should not be more then 4.5 kg overall. As the rig is unstayed it should be buildable for 13 kg or less. That is pretty lightweight. And added advantage of the class 5 rig is that the mast is build up out of shorter components by fundamental design. Therefor the rig can be "collapsed" into smaller sections just like the laser rig. This takes care of one major problem point mast -length and easy transport.

The beams should not be more than 80x2 and the whole platform should not have to be wider than 1.80 mtr. Probably 1.60 mtr. is better. That is if you look at the ease of flying a hull, a key component in thrill experience. But either way the beams themself will not be heavier then 2.5 kg a piece, excluding additional fitting of which there are hardly many as this is a simple boat. That makes 5 kg for the beams.

I have a very simple traveller setup that is both very cheap and effective. I have that system on one of my other landyachts. I never believed it would work but it truly does. The whole system is just two blocks with a becket and a length of line. No cleats, no rails, no cars. As such it is excellent for this F12 setup. Mainsheet and downhaul are integrated and should not weight more then 1 to 1.5 kg.

I've also done some stress analysis and it looks very doable from many angles. There are only two problem points. We are now only left with roughly 30 kg for two hulls. That means 15 kg per hull.

problem point one :

How to make a hull by inexpensive means that only weights 15 kg. I believe that the 12 foot length is a very helpful factor here, just as the unstayed rig is. But cheap and inexpensive production techniques pretty much mean a hull made with core-matt instead of foam. As in spraying a core layer of chopped matt and resin on the outer skin and than finishing of the inside with another layer of glass. Will that allow a 15 kg hull of 12 foot length ?

problem point two :

How to fit the mainbeam to the hulls. The mainbeam will be under significant torsion loads that all need to be taken up by the beam landing if the boat is to remain simple. Calculations will only help a little bit in this area, significant real life testing need to be done to really find out what will work and what won't.


I also measured up the roof of my car and a 12 ft by 6 ft is really cartoppable when fully assembled. Afterall the laser 1 itself is 13.5 ft by 4.5 ft. But again lightweightness is key as pushing a 50 kg platform on top of your car is alot harder then 30 kg.


Personally I see this concept as very promising. At least up till now I have not really found any serious hang-ups. Maybe we should indeed persue it further.

However I do propose to forget about 14 ft and go straight to 12 foot. This will not carry a family as neither the laser-1 will. We are not looking to design a competitor to the Hobie wave.

Without clear concent I can't use any F16 hull data for the F12 hulls. So somebody, somewhere has to come up with a decent 12 foot hull or persuade Phill to draw of the F12 hulls. Without Phills concent I really can't work on the hulls. All the other stuff is unrelated to the Blades and so I can work on them and make the findings public knowlegde.

But far more interesting at this time is solving the beamlanding issue. For that even simple test rigs can be build and used. That'll save us wasting time and money on hull that we'll break.

I propose to start on that first, any takers ?

An alternative could be to get the timber Pixie building plans (a 14 ft 100 kg catamaran) and use that as a first test bed. Or maybe the 14 ft paper tiger building plans.

Does anybody here have experience or data concerning core-matt hull building. ?

Gareth, are you willing to provide us with some Michlet hull drag data ? Preferably compared to f18 hull drag graphs ?

If we forum members work together on this one then maybe some really exiting may develop.

Wouter

How about if we could design this F12 so it can be produced and sold for very little money. Something like 3000 US$ ?

Something stirdy enough so it can be safely given to young people without risking alot of money ?

Something really simple and that will look really simple to most novices as well. As in non-threatening.

Would that allow us to throw these things about and work up demand for them among young people.

Afterall there are not many racing sports with as little danger of serious bodily harm then sailing. If you spin out of control then the worst that can happen is that you'll get wet. But it is still very much racing.

Wouter

Here an example of how a class 5 unstayed landyacht rig looks :

It is quite tall and skinny, but with some significant surface area.

Its aspect ratio is very close to a F18 !

Also notice the absolute simplicity of the mast, sails and even the sheet.

The keys are "make it cheap" and "make it easy". Easy to build (if homebuilding is to be a serious option), easy to transport, easy to rig and easy to sail. The Opti used to be like this, but no more (50 measurement points when measuring a hull?).
The potential for a kid having fun (with friends) is much larger on a cat than on a Opti. A cat is the perfect platform for bathing and other fun water activities. If the boats are fast in addition they are fun.
In the end, it's the parents who has the money or the resources to build a boat. Cost is a deciding factor not to be underestimated. Another factor to consider is how to get it started?


Wouter: I have buildt a Quattro16, which is a Pixie scaled up a bit. Simple to build, but all those full bulkheads add weight.
Do you have any pictures of the traveller setup you described?

The boat will be 50KG (125lbs).
How much crew weight can the boat handle and still sail well?
This design stuff is not my cup of tea.

The big question still remains:
What will be done differant to get the kids on the boats and out sailing that has not been tried many times already?

I don't want to be negative, but I still feel the big issue is not the boat.
Your trying to provide a product with no established demand.

There are still a lot of H14's out there, there's the Wave, Bravo, Dragoon ,Mystere 4.3 and others.
Why do you guys feel that an F12 will get kids to want to go sailing on that boat over any of the above?

My personal preference is to have Phill design the hulls as his Blade hulls are very good. Much better then any other homebuildable plans out there.

The pixie idea is just to get a test platform on the water to work out the beam-landing design and test the class 5 rig. Think of it as a validation platform with the real F12 platform being optimized with the experiences gained.





I think 3 out of 4 key points are almost certainly assured with this F12 basic setup.

I know from my class 5 experience how quick and easy this mast sail combo is too rig and sail. I see no reason why it should be any different when placed on a boat.

The same class 5 exeperience tells me that it is easy to transport as well. The class 5's are 50 kg in overall weight and the mast can be broken down into smaller pieces.

The mast is easy to build and as good as all class 5 landyachters do build them themselfs. The sail is nothing special either, just a sleeved sail with a round tube stuck through its sleeve. Its most important feature is luff curve. The boom is free hanging and even my grandmother can build one of those.

Other components are pretty standard Cat stuff.


The angle to attract kids is to first make these boats look modern and look fast. I think the rig goes a long way in adressing this.

The second is to do fleet racing like the waves are doing, where anybody can come along and enter himself into the race after paying say 25 bucks per evening.

Then grow it from there. Maybe challenge a few laser-1's and beat them.

Wouter

Because nearly all of the boats named look ugly or look like something "your parents" would sail. And if they do look more or less okay then they are too heavy and too complex.

Lets face it, is the Bravo easily associated with "speed" or "cool!" when just looking at it ?

The only rotomolded cat that looks good is the Dart 16.

Nearly all of these rotomolded boats are designed to carry 180 kg of crew weight and as such they are under-performant. I think it to be a big mistake the require these boats to carry the whole family. If anything only a parent and kids should be carried for as long as it is required to teach juniour the ropes and build up enough confidence to go out alone. Therefor the boats should be able to float say 130 kg but should really be optimized for much less crew weight say 40 to 65 kg.

The dragoon and m4.3 look alot better, but both are too heavy and too complicated to be comparable to the ease of say a Laser or optimist dinghy. They are full race catamaran, including a spinnaker, but as such are too much for the group of kids, teenagers and women that we are going after.


The F12 should therefor be nothing of the above. It should be an catamaran that is really simple (15 min rig time tops), easy to learn and sail, lightweight and above all performant when sailed by a kid or light parent (alone).

Afterall how many parents step into a optimist together with their kids ? None, there is simply no room, still most kids get into sailing through mono's like these. So drop the "should carry the family" demand


Wouter

Pat,
By comparison the boats you mentioned are too heavy, and too complex.
The boat I had in mind would be so simple it would be rigged in about the same time it would take to put your sailing clothes on. So mum and dad could rig their boat and in the times it takes Johnny to get dressed his boat would be rigged too.
He sails around in the shallows while mum and dad go racing.

When you have enough kids sailing around in the shallows you can start organising races for them or better still ball games on the water. Ball games on the water can be a lot of fun if the boats are agile enough.

Regards,
Phill

Humm,

Looks like Phill and I are answering the same posts at exactly the same time.

Funny !

Wouter

While the thought of building a boat that is as short as the spinnaker pole on my current boat makes me smirk, I don't think I can FIT on a 12' boat. Hell I'm more than half as tall as it is long! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What the hell, why not?

Need line drawings!

(also this would be a building learning experience for me, so the weight would be... lets just say it wont be no Acat) :P

"Looks like Phill and I are answering the same posts at exactly the same time."

Good point.

I'd better go do some of the tasks I have set for the day.
There is never enough time.

At one time hobie had a small cat, it was only about 11.5 feet long. I have a very old one sitting out back that I purchased a few weeks ago. I actually thought I was buying a Hobie 14 when I saw it. I really haven't looked at it at all. I know there are some pieces missing but it could be the boat that we are looking for.

I know you all are looking for something closer to a high performance boat with boards but in all honesty the boards add alot of weight and complexity. Also just look at the way the 14 is rigged, you could do without the traveler but other than that it would be about ideal. It is really simple to rig and if made smaller it would be a blast.

It sounds like the plan is to go with an unstayed rig, if it was made like that the sail could furl around that mast, that would be a huge advantage in making the boat simple and safe.

Also since we are trying to make the boat light and cheap. Lets only use one rudder off the rear cross bar. Wouldn't that work. Plus it could cut out the entire need for two rudder assemblies, and since they are not attached to the sterns the rear of the boat could be built lighter because it would have less stress on it.

I would be really interested in seeing something like this. I look at my generation and there are more people playing video games than even thinking about getting out and going sailing. I want to see people out there and a cheap boat could really help with that.

I guess we will just see where this goes.

It seems that the age groups would need to be broken down more. John mentioned 7-25yr old age range. I would say that it is more like a 7-12 bracket, 13-18, college age, and then the 23yr old plus. This makes it that much harder to make everyone happy.
I still find it hard to believe that parents will spend $3k for a boat for the youngsters(7-12) to bomb around on.
The 13-18 age group can start to sail a H16, F16 and even an F18.
I have sailed with kids in all the age brackets and know how hard it can be to keep them interested.
I find they come to regatta's and even fleet or club racing based a lot more on the social aspects then any boat factor you can throw in.
Looking Cool and Fast are relative terms and all the differant age groups will probably have differant views.
I can tell you "Fast" is a lot slower for a 7 year old than it is to a 16yr old.
I'm all for promoting youth sailing and trying to find a boat that makes that happen.
If you don't ask the questions you won't be successful.

Remember Maugan, that laser 1 dinghy isn't bigger than the F12 !

Wouter

Hi All

I was just having a quiet think to myself. When I sailed juniors the only real option available was an Arafura cadet or an Impara cadet (both 12 ft), are you familiar with the Impara, Phill? Theres actually one in storage at the local yacht Club, its ply, rounded tortured ply as opposed to the hard chine Arafura. When we used to rig on the beach, we'd dream of sailing the boats like the mosquito, taipan or the pipe dream A Class.

My only concern (don't hurt me) would be not make it too simple, even the smallest of the monos and indeed the Arafura and Impara had the basic control lines, not necessarily a 8:1 internal downhaul or anything like that, but when kids look at the big boats they can associate their boat with something bigger.

I've been thinking of the future for my son as well, and have sat down with paper and pen, nothing too technical at this stage, but in realistic terms what I would have liked to sail when I was a junior, whilst remaining as stated easily and inexpensive to build, transport and sail.

Maybe ask the juniors what they see as being the ideal cat for them, I know, I know never work kids or animals, but you never know what ideas they might have to help.

Just another opinion, but at the end of the day. If was a junior, I'd want to be able look at my boat and then look at a F16, A Class or whatever and say to myself, 'Your Next'. Just tell Mum and Dad to start forking out the inheritence a bit earlier, I keep asking mine, but they won't go for it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards

One point that has not been mentioned......the boat MUST be exciting....it HAS to be able to SMOKE mono dingys of similar size/length (including Laser). Kids today are a bit more adrenaline addicted than even a generation ago. Add to that the fact that we (in most cases) are trying to pull kids from strong existing mono classes with a lot of family history. Even my own 15 year old has a hard time bucking all his friends to come sail on a cat....but he will IF it is significantly more exciting...but NOT "just" because it has 2 hulls.....(as an aside, I'm hoping to get him on an F18 soon...)

Does anybody know what the US sailing Portsmouth numbers for the laser dinghy are and if these numbers can be compared to the cat portsmouth numbers ?

That would help me.

Matt and Joe, basically what I'm trying to do is keep walking down the scaling path that lead the F16's to have the same performance as the F18's and that has also shown the Aussie F14's to hang with both the F16's and F18's. This will allow the F12 to be a pretty fast boat.

Roughly speaking if we scale a 5.52 mtr long F18 hull (330 kg crew+boat weight) down to 3.65 mtr (F12) then that hull will carry optimally 100 kg (boat + crew). Now if we are succesful in making the F12 50 kg ready to sail then a 50 kg kid will be flying with about the same speed as the F18 if the rigs are scaled by the same extend. This latter conditions is too much to live up to as that would require some 9.25 sq.mtr. of upwind sailarea. and we would only carry something like 6 sq. mtr. But still those 6 sq. mtr. would bring the F12 performance to somewhere around the Hobie 16's and Prindle 16's. And that is really not a bad speed potential for the kids. It will certainly impress the Laser crowd.

But this are just early predictions.


And Matt, in my basic plan the platform would look almost the same as an A-cat except not having daggerboards but skegs. The only real different will be the rig itself but I think the unstayed landyacht rig does look flashy enough to make it attractive. Ohh, and it won't have a trapeze. It will be a hiking boat just like the laser.

But one thing is for sure, because of the extra width a kid will be able to make the F12 go much faster then he can make the laser dinghy go. Afterall you need to be pretty tall and heavy to get max performance out of a laser.

Wouter

The standard Laser is rated at 91.1

For sake of reference following are a few various cats:

Hobie 14 - 86.4
Hobie 16 - 76
F16 (2up) - 65.2
F18 - 62.4
N20 - 59.3
Tornado - 59.0

I couldn't sail a Laser either Wout :P

Not anymore.

Laser (Int.) LASE 91.1 93.8 92.2 91.0 88.2

And yes these numbers would apply against a catamaran.



Portsmouth

Doh, I'm a little slow.

Matt: Here's your Arafura
There are at least 10 cats that have been designed and built that are under 14ft over the years.
Has anyone heard of the Paper Tiger?

Yes, Paper Tigers everywhere over here, but too big for junior IMO (assuming where chasing the youngest of sailors)
Although it has approval I think for junior development over here for things like Vicsail (turning juniors to champs).

The Impara Cadet looks like a small version of the mossie, more modern than the Arafura, however the Arafura is still fairly popular I think, but I've only ever seen 3 Imparas.

I'm not sure that the collapsible mast/unstayed rig would be my thinking, but I'm not designing it either. And I believe trapeze is a must have, if this boat could comparable to the hobie 16 or any bigger cat for that matter, I can't see how you could be in the ball park hiking, lets face it, I love and have always loved the wire.

Just my 2 cents

My 6 year old loves to trap even as I drag the Stingray over the sand, he wouldnt look at a cat without traps but would work the wild thing out pretty quick. Workout that small homebuild and I could get rid of the 420.
regards

To make the boat exciting it will need to have a trapeze. Without the trapeze all you have is two lasers attached. I mean I am sure it would be different but if you are hiking just like the laser crowd you don't look that different. But if some kid is on a laser hiking out, and some kid flys by them trapped out.... we will have one more cat sailor.

The cool factor is a must. THe boat has to look like the bigger cats. That was what drew me away from my little 14. I can't afford a really nice new boat but the 5.2 sure looks a hell of alot closer to those nicer cats than the 14 did. If the boat looks like the bigger boat that dad is sailing kids will love it!

I brought this topic up on the Hobie forum a while back and got flamed for it. I had mentioned the idea that the boat could be built for 3 possibly even 4 thousand dollars. Alot of the people at Hobie ripped me for that idea saying that there was no way it could be done. So I would say that Hobie is not the company to go to with the idea.

Yeah I know the rigging looks bad on that attatchment and that was the old boat when he was four but he already knows that a real boat has traps
regards

How does a Class 5 mast attach to the main beam?

Hobie 16 side rails are more than 1,8 meters, enough of a flat spot to consider teardrop instead of a round beam? In light of beam landing issues. (I'm also thinking of "throw away" items to use I have piling up in the garage)

Skegs? You had previously spoke of some type of pivoting boards. Suppose that is just driving up costs.

What about steering, single rudder with two extensions (ala skiff)? Would there be an issue/interference with the traveller system? Or two rudders and crossbar?

Can you elaborate more on sails and existing options. A quick google came up with $800USD w/o battens for a UK made Class 5 sail.

Adding traps complicates the rigging because you'd then need a stayed mast, right? Losing the simple factor.... Rolling over a Laser with speed would be enough in my opinion.

Too bad us Northerners are in the "wrong hemisphere", most of us are looking at three months of down time.

I don't know about you guys, but I am not going to spend $3,000 on a light weight(50kg) foam core boat(read fragile) to give to my kid so she can go run into or be run into by other kids while learning to sail.This will happen. Lots of money or my time to fix.
For kids 13 and under the Wave(or similiar roto-mold durable boat) works great. After that they can sail whatever they want.
Having a kid on a trap wire is great fun for them and sometimes scary if your not careful. It's a big jump for the kids to skipper the boat from the wire not to mention the danger of having a kid sailing by themselves and hooked into a trap.(they have a tendency to bare away as they jump out)
I have 3 kids worth of experience with all of this. The big thing is to just get them and as many of their friends on a boat as you can and go sailing. They usually want to stop and swim or drag their feet in the water or lie down on a hull and drag their arms and splash whoever they can.
It seems your thinking to much like adults and not like a kid(7-12) would.

Why not have a very simple stayed rig? The shrouds don't add much weight and add alot structurally. Then you could trap. I agree that passing a laser would be enough, but if we are looking to draw in large numbers of kids it would have to be more than just enough.

Also one boat can't do it all. The boat that we are designing would be for people up to about ??? what something like 130 pounds tops. From the point up there needs to be another solo boat that they can progress up to. The Hobie 14 would be the perfect boat, but they are no longer made so it looks like something else will have to replace it. That would do for High school kids and college kids. From there they could go to something like f16's or A class.

I bought a 2002 Mystee 4.3 Nationals boat for my grand daughter. Seems to be a fun boat. Squaetop, jib and snuffer spinnaker.

Doug

Instead of us deciding for the youngens, why not ask them. What would they consider cool to get them on it? Back when I was 12yrs old, I thought a sunfish was extremely cool. It was the first boat I ever sailed, dunno, thats just me.

Anyone with young kids, ask them for their opinion.

Add cool graphics, make it more eye appealing, target your hardcore/tribalistic/adrenaline junkie and they will come.

If we can design a light easy to homebuild boat I'll soon add stays and trap to keep them happy. It would be ideal to get a basic boat that could be developed with the kids as they get older they just slide onto one of those ever so cool F14 to F16 etc

My 2 cents worth is that TWO youth boats are needed. 10 feet and 14 feet.
Got to get these guys when they are 6 years old! 14 footer needs to end up in Olympics so there is a REAL desire to learn and win.
In this country it goes Opti, Star, Laser, Olympics.
12 footer is neither here nor there.
The PT has been a great non trap, one sail, hi tech boat for 30 years. This boat weighs 53 kilos and a modern boat on this theme must be a great idea.
BTW
Windrush 14 was created as a roof top boat. That is why it has the folding hulls. This is a credible 80s 14 footer with a top speed tested at over 18 knotts and easily competitive with a Hobie 14.
I think that the key to a roof topper is the set up ON THE ROOF. If you can create a boat that sits with its beach trolly on the roof you have something that will get to the water without fuss. A light boat and leaving it to the sailor to sort out roofing won't do it.

Hi All

I disagree, shrouds and trap wires won't complicate the boat. The smallest boats around have shrouds and not too much further up the scale they have trap wires, if they don't want to trap for the first few months they don't have to, but option for them should there.

This is my concern, you design a boat that is ideal for a young inexperienced, say 12 year old, without something of a bit of challenge later (e.g once they start racing each other) they will soon get bored with them, and its back to the monos for a bit of trapeze and later again the spinnaker.

Will it become an F12, box rule type cat, or has it been tagged F12 for this discussion?

I know we are adults thinking/talking about this, and the kids, as has been said, should have some input.

I would probably have the following written down prior to designing my own. Cat Rigged (to sail alone or with friend or sibling) optional jib (to sail with friend or sibling)
single trapeze (perhaps introduced after intial training with boat) single pivoting centreboard? Stayed rig.

Again please take this an opinion, not trying to tell anyone how to do anything. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regards

Pat,
I totally agree with your posts on this thread. It is not about the boat.

Furthermore, I have always said that if you want your kids to get involved in sailing, you get them into a yacht club program in the monohulls -- Optis, 420's, Lasers, etc. A club that has club fleets, so you don't have to buy them a boat unless you go on the racing circuit.

Personally, I am totally incapable of understanding why it makes a difference to you guys whether a kid is sailing on one hull or two. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Sailing comes first. Racing comes second. Ultimate choice of boat should be a distant third.

It is like exposing your child to various aspects of art or dance or music. Just because you prefer to play the guitar doesn't mean your kid has to play guitar -- he might prefer the tuba. You don't buy an instrument for him until you know what he enjoys.

The point is that you should expose your children to sailing -- on various types of boats -- and just hope that they will like to sail, period. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some posters have mentioned the very real desire to have a trapeze. However, we must be really careful not to keep adding stuff as that will quickly make the boat both heavier and more complex and both of those make it more expensive as well.

We must also look at the power the rig is developping. At this time it is not really enough to pull a 50 kg sailor on the wire. We can make the rig bigger but then we quickly have to add both mainsheet purchase and stays. Both of which really do increase the loading on the component requiring them to become stronger. And then finally we end up with a 100 kg Hobie wave or Mystere 4.3 and that is neither car-toppable or easy to rig. At this time I'm sorry to say that we must make hard choices in order to get to our goal which many see to be, really simple, really light and really inexpensive but fast and fun to sail. The trapeze is difficult to justify on those grounds.

Hell, at this stage we should rather be taking away then add to the boat.

Wouter

picture says more then words.



It is a simple pop in which the mast is placed. I know it looks really fragile and stuff but it really isn't. That is as long as we keep the rig relatively small. 6 sq. mtr should be fine as that is exactly what this Standard landyacht of the picture is using. These cars are 2.6 wide and are pulling on one wheel by the rig. This all comes pretty close to what we are intending to do with the F12 in the way of loading and stresses.

http://www.char-a-voile.com/franc2/seagull.html




I'm not really sure what you trying to say here. I don't think the F12 is intended to have "side" beams. Additionally round alu tubing is very easy to get and inexpensive the world over. Two things I'm directly after for this design.





I would really love this boat to have pivoting daggerboards to optimize its upwind potential. But the real race will be to get down to 50 kg ready to sail and pivoting boards will add about 5 to 6 kg to the boat. That is a quick and easy safe if we go for skegs. Also the need for kids to sail in really shallow water was reiterated by Phill and I think he is right there. Skegs are much better here and it really does simplify things both in construction and cost. Finally I thought lets try to make it work with skegs, we can always add the daggerboards later is so required, for the moment we can also use oversized rudders and get some pointing performance out of them like the Supercats are doing. It is worth a try to start out with skegs. At least that is my opinion.





My choice would be to make the platform with two rudders and a crossbar + a single tiller extension. Just as a normal catamaran. In effect make it look as much as a normal catamaran, as Taipanmatt said. Additionally I want the large rudder area to help boost pointing. This is a real possibility as the rig will indeed bend far backwards when sheeted tight. Making the centre-of-effort point lay close to the rudders.

I'm still undecided where the crossbar will be.




Yes, class 5 sails are rather expensive but that is because those are quotes of competitive sails in a class that is rather popular on French beaches. The design of the sail however is not that difficult at all nor is making it. Because of the very large mast bend the whole design of the mainsail revolved around having the right luff curve. This is actually very large and so such sails can be copied relatively easily if you know what to look for. I ones brought my landyacht sail to a sailmaker and he said he would copy it for maybe 150 bucks (excl. new battens). However I would certain try making such a copy myself. There really isn't that much too it. And with the sleeved design it is also relatively easy to adjust the luff curve at a later time.

I don't think the mainsail is a realy problem either construction wise or money wise. Once a good cut has been found then it is just copying this design by some Hong Kong sweat shop.

Wouter

I'm a northerner as well, I'm at the latitude of Sasketewan. But i'm doing this in the winter months. And some landyachting is weather permits. Can't you do that ? Or ice-yachting ?

Wouter

How many mono's for kids are trapeze boats ?

And the ones that are (29-er, laser-2 etc) how expensive are they. Are any of these rotomoulded ?

So why are we trying to include these things when the mono's aren't ?

Hell the optimist, extremely popular with parents and kids, has a very outdated rig and the bloody things cost 3000 Euro's or more in retail. Same for the Splashes and such boats. A Laser-1 costs between 3500 and 4500 Euro's in retail.

As such I would claim that a 3000 US$ F12 without a trapeze but with a much more modern rig and speed approaching the H16 will be excellent challenger to the other kids boats.

Wouter

In my view the F12 will be a true formula class. I having nothing but disrespect for classes that call pure one-design boats by a formula name.

Hell, if it were up to me I would make the design public domain as well, so everybody (builder) can build it.

I feel that we must have some decentralized development to optimize the design. The true trick will be to write the formula class rules, but I have a concept of that.

Wouter

Theres a few over here, available as home builds or Fibreglass. 125 dinghy is one and what I started on, The Flying Ant, Arafura Cadets are cats with a trapeze, Impara Cadet is a cat with a trapeze, Cherubs and 420. I will say the Cherub has become more a boat for a couple of young adults so probably don't count that one. But here in the Western Region of Victoria, we almost all had 125's as our junior boats (trapeze and spinnaker) And another club in the Region has just put the next generation through with Flying Ants (trapeze and spinnaker)with the main senior boat at their club being the Int.Fireball. There are also a lot without.

Perhaps if we knew what age group we are talking about, 10-14, 12-16 or 12-18. I can only assume from the design brief or ideas that its at the younger group, say 10-14?

Regards

My personal goal is not really an age group, but a target group of a certain weight and attitude.

In my view the F12 should cater for sailor in the weight range of 40 kg to 70 kg and of the attitude that it must be really inexpensive and easy to operate while still being a thrill to sail.

This certain will included relatively young person, but also women and light males.

Personally I would love to sail one of these things myself at 85 kg. I picture it as a boat that can used to sail for an hour or so after work. Overhere it has been tried to do that with lasers but these tend to have problems getting through the surf. The F12 will not have that problem.

Also for these short sails, quick rigging and unrigging will be paramount.

The boat will probably not lift a hull with me on it, but it could still be lots of fun to sail it as an adult. Not to mention the abdominal workout through hiking.

So no I don't think it is designed for a specific age group.

Even more so the class could regulate three sub classes based on weight so that even full grown adults could have fun racing their peers. Sort of like Class 1 = up to 50 kg, class 2 = 50-70 kg, class 3 = above 70 kg.

Sure the class 5 will be slower then the classes 1 and 2 but that won't matter as all the sailors in class 3 will be slower by the same amount and so racing will be fair again.

Additionally the unstayed mast design will allow different mast tips of varying stiffness to be used. So the heavier classes can use stiffer mast tips keeping more draft in the top of the sail.

The current mast design is such that each sailor can make his own tip from simple round alu tubing from you local hardware store.


Nor do I think this boat should have a jib or spinnaker. If a sailor wants that then the F14 or F16 should be looked at. I think we must look at this F12 as how the go-carts relate to the true racing cars like Nascar and F1. It emulated enough of the experience to be regarded as car racing but it is so much simpler that it is within reach or ordinary people.

Wouter

I love the idea of a 12ft children’s cat, this is something I have been thinking of myself. Would not the cheapest lightest rig be a windsurfing rig. Instead of skegs or dagger boards perhaps a hull shape similar to the Gcat would be more practical, I feel that that hull shape would work even better on an F12 than an F16 (on which it seems to work quite well).

I have a test crew ready and waiting as I have 9, 7 and 5 year old children (my 7 month daughter is a bit young) that I am currently introducing to an optimist.

I think the main advantage of a cat over a mono for children is stability not speed, that said it would still be pretty quick.

As per Wouters request, here is the michlet drag prediction of a 12ft cat carrying 120kg (Hull2 purple), in order to give it a sense of scale I have compared it with a laser at the same weight (Hull1 red).



I am happy to participate in an open source design.

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

F18 at 300kg added to the plot (Hull3 blue)


Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

I agree with Mary and Pat here too. The best way to get kids into sailing is give them access to boats that their parents don't have to buy. There is already a pretty decent network of optis and lasers that include programs and people to train the kids the basics of sailing. We're talking here about doing what we multihullers typically do in trying to buck the system and do our own thing - which is why we still have some of the reputation we do.

This is a lot like a musical instrument rental program if your kid wants to join the band. Most places offer it as a way for parents to get the kids into it cheaply while the kids sort out whether or not it's a hobby that will stick.

So you want kids sailing but you want them sailing multihulls? IMHO, the best thing you can do is to get the kids to the club into the youth program and while they're racing go racing in your multihull. It won't take them long (the entire fleet actually) to recognize the speed of the catamaran and they'll surely recognize it as a pinnacle of achievement to be able to race on those.

So the keys as I see them are: Get yourselves and our kids into Sailing Clubs and their youth programs and get multihulls out at the same clubs participating and contributing.

A certain attitude... An editorial by Ed Muns last year described cat sailing youth as those under 40 years of age.

A friend's father, who weighs 125 pounds, and still enjoys sailing recently bought a Bravo, but at 175 pounds it requires a trailer for transport and takes up considerable real estate in his garage.

Robi, great graphics!!

Regarding beam landing, what kind of test rigs need to be built?

Exactly. Get the kids on the water, on anything, then teach them to take the helm and set the sails, and they'll be hooked (just like we all were).

I sail because I spent my HS years living on a small lake and we had a Sunfish. I lived on that boat...my folks usually had to blow a horn to tell me it was time to come in for dinner. Everyone knows the Sunfish isn't a fast, exciting boat, but I had a blast sailing one as a kid.

As they say, the acorn doesn't fall too far from the tree, so children of active parents will tend to be active themselves, and then have active kids of their own someday. It's a bit like preaching to the choir to discuss it here, so I would posit that to expand the sport we have to reach out to those that aren't inherently exposed to it. Volunteer sailing programs with local schools, community groups, etc? Take your neighbors/friends kids sailing? Conduct sailing club fund raisers, buy some learner boats, and reach-out to the community?

Bottom line is we have to get new ones on the water. Once we do that, the rest takes care of itself.

This seems to be the required "first step." If multihulls become a regular part of every sailing/yacht club, then we have a chance to grow the multihulls. I'm not sure that sailing, as a sport, isn't a "net zero" sport, i.e., we aren't growing the number of sailors. Getting into the yacht clubs might increase the number of cat sailors.

Overall, however, getting kids sailing in anything is a good first step to getting them on beach cats. They don't have to start on cats, IMHO.

Does anyone in the States remember the "Fast is Fun" program? Art Stevens had 5 Hobie Waves that he would take around the country to clubs where kids were already sailing Opti's. I tried to find out what ever became of that program but can't get any contact with Art, now that he is out of the program.

I remember reading in a Sail magazine, back when the Wave was first introduced (1994?) they did a test of new "Kid's Boats" with the Opti, JY Opti, Byte, etc. and the Wave. I remember reading that overwhelmingly, the kid's FAVORTIE boat was the Wave. The two reasons were: "It's Fast" and "We can sail with a friend".

After I read that, I figured the Wave would become the new Opti, but here we are, more than 10 years later, when I go to Yacht Clubs all I see are racks and racks of Opti's and Lasers. No Waves. Why is that, if that is the boat the kids prefer?

I think there is a fair amount of Yacht Club bias towards the mono dinghy pipeline. The steps are well worn, Opti, Laser Radial, Laser, 420, 470. They sell it as "The way to the Olympics" or to Jr. Olympics. Cats only have what, the Wave, with no real Jr. racing program other than Rick doing it alone, and Hobie 16 as the Jr. boat. They take up a lot of room on the beach (no rack storage for cats) and most clubs don't even HAVE a beach in the first place. The Opti racers have 4 classes to chose from, from beginner to experienced, they have built an excellent program over the years. I had hoped Hobie would try to do the same with the Wave, but I don't see too many at Yacht Clubs.

So we have to overcome at least two problems right there: 1. get a Jr. racing pipeline established and 2. storage space. The first you could do, but the space? Most clubs I've been to just don't have the extra space available to store 10 Hobie 16's + Waves, nor a beach to launch them from. And most of our regattas are not held out of a Club, but from a good cat launching site. So even if you had a Club full of kids ready and willing to race a Wave type Jr. Cat, they would have to hold their own small regattas or load it up and travel to a regatta. Easisly done with an Opti or Laser on the top of Dad's car, not as easy with with a trailer boat.

Cost? Well, 10 years ago a new "Full Race" Opti was selling for about $3,500, for an 8' bathtub! A new Laser is over $5,000 now. I would guess a new 420 would have to be at least $7-10K? So that is what you will be competing with.

Speaking of youth, this 14-year old has just crossed the Atlantic making him the youngest sailer ever to do so.
[http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/auto/newsdesk/20070003092614ymnews.html
Google News

I'm a bit surprised that windsurfing is not mentioned as a way to get started in sailing.
IMHO there are a lot of parallels with high-performance sailboats like cats, skiffs, etc.
like the use of a trapeze, rig and sail tuning (and lots of swimming<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

I thought this was starting as a get kids on the water post, but I read quite a few remarks about pulling the kids from the lasers to our "new" cat. Which is it?

If the point is to pull the kids from mono's to cats, then sure, a boat that looks cool with fast graphics is affordable and easy to use is a must. But don't forget that you have to convince the parent to buy it for the kids, or a club to purchase a handful of them for kids to "rent". Keep in mind though, you're not actually growing the number of sailing youth, just converting them to multi's.

If you want to grow the number of sailing kids out there, I don't think a new boat design is going to help. You need to change the PERCEPTION of sailing, not the WAY you sail. I grew up on the water, but we had ski boats and paddle boats. The sail powered boats on the lakes were just an annoyance... besides, why would anyone in their right mind want to pay money for a boat that doesn't get you directly from point a to point b, occasionally dumps upside down, and compared to our 45 Johnson, barely moves across the water?

My testimony: When I was about 10, my brother spent $50 of his hard earned paper route money on a wind surfer. Sure, it was a beat up piece of junk with what seemed like a 16' board that seemed to weigh 200 lbs, but it was a blast to go out on. That $50 board is what got me hooked on wind sports, not the clubs or racing fleets. To this day, I have no desire to participate in a buoy race... some of the distance races sound interesting... but for me, it's getting my friends out on the boat and enjoying the afternoon ripping around the lake with no motor. I absolutely love getting someone who has never sailed on my boat. The first thing they say is WOW, we’re going really fast! My response is always the same… this is nice, but you should see it when it’s really blowing.

When I talk to people who have never sailed (adults and kids), the view is pretty much the same, it might be fun to try sometime, but it _looks_ pretty slow and boring. Change that perception and you will grow sailing in both the youth and adults.

How do you change an entire cultures perception? Money. You have to inform the public of how fast some of these boats really are. You can't just look at a cat flying across the ocean at 30 knots and realize the speed unless you have something to relate it to. We all know how bloody fast 30 knots on the water is, but a 12 year old doesn't. The adult who's never been in a boat skipping across the water doesn't. They need to relate that boat speed to something they've done. Run commercials of people water skiing behind a cat or show Lance Armstrong riding a bike along a lake and a cat blowing past him. Show an ultra light flying low over the water with a cat sailing faster than its flying. Now you're showing the general population how fast these things are.

Once you change the general view of sailing from being a slow wine and dine type of thing to an all afternoon adrenaline rush, you'll see the participation numbers climb.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to see some creativity and some of the collaborative thinking on this topic, but I think the main point should be to get kids out sailing. Doesn't matter what they sail, just get them on the water.

I do not have time to read this entire thread right now, so I hope this has not be said but, I have said this before and still believe that what we need to do is find a way to get the parents off their buts and go to the lakes. I do not believe it is the kids that are not interested, it's the parents that do not know sailing is very much alive.

Most of us land locked adults don't even think about going to a lake for any reason. In the back of our minds my wife and I always liked to get out of town, we just never did! Her family use to go camping all the time when she was young. Her dad would wake them up at 4:30 in the morning load them in the car and go. We have been married 19 years and been camping once. Not because we did not want to, we just never thought about it.

I always wanted to get a boat, I just didn't have time, it costs too much. When you live a whole hour from the nearest day lake and 2 or 3 hours from a lake that you can camp at. Lets go Camping. 4 kids 4 responses, 6 year old daughter, "WHEN ARE WE GOING??????????", 15 year old son, "2 days with out my game cube? No TV? NO WAY!!!!" 16 year old daughter can I take a friend? and 17 year old daughter, Hummm, boys???

I found a boat and a fleet and we went camping. The little one can not wait for the season to start again, hooked for live. My son just found out there is a sailboard one of the fleet members is giving away, he does not know he is getting it for his birthday tomorrow but really thought that would be cool. 16 year old daughter, learned to sail my 16 and is helping build one for them to sail. 17 Year old daughter, learned to sail a banshee and has been camping a few times.

Yes a small simple boat would help, but I would probably not buy a $3000 boat for a child. I just can not afford it. A good used 14 or similar maybe.

Again, just a few thoughts, Find a way to get parents out!!! It does not have to cost thousands of dollars. I believe that if kids are by the water and there are boats, they will probably go sailing. Some of them may even enjoy it.

We had a tent and some sleeping bags, no cook ware no water jugs, but, we did have LOTS of BEER Storage vessels. So we took beer soda and food. The fleet has been great and after just one season we are just about self sufficient.

Sam

And that (speed) is exactly why Jet Skis are selling so well. Turn the key, off you go. No knowledge or skill required, and just about zero set up time. Not dependant on what the wind is doing today either.

Yeah, well he had his dad on another boat side by side with him. Still it's an accomplishment, but not what I would consider the accomplishment of a solo crossing.

One of the more enjoyable times I've had was when Art came to town and we vounteered to help the Fast and Fun event happen. Somewhere I have a bunch of pics...

But here's my take on this.

I think there should be a small boat along the lines of what is being discussed. This boat should be:

1) Easily buildable - One major problem with getting kids in cats is that whatever you come up with now will be new. If it costs a certain amount to buy, then it will slow on the take. If that cost climbs, then the family will be less likely to buy it especially if it only fits the kids, not the family. Remember that the Opti and such started out as designs to be built, and a club could put a fleet together on its own with members doing build days. While we as performance sailors usually go for the high-tech, this is a design to exercise some restraint with. Materials should not be hard to obtain, and should be relatively easy to work with.

2) Should perform well - note that I said perform well, it does not have to be the hottest thing on the water. Only hot enough. It should handle well as a requisite - I would opt for boards over asym hull shape to avoid frustration with tacking. Note that for ease of building, a single board in the middle, or lee boards on the inboard side of the hulls may help simplify the build process.

3) A variety of rigs - this may seem at odds with the simple thing, but... The discussion so far has been either-or. You could make a platform that could use an unstayed used windsurfer rig as option 1 for the simplest fun for beginners or knock-about sailing. Maybe even a Sunfish or Laser rig. Move up to the more experienced kids and add the stayed rig with purpose made sail (patterns available to sew yourself or have the local sailmaker do), maybe next step is a trap, and so on. I know that each option changes the loads on the hull, but you can plan for max as far as platform design goes, and rig as appropriate for sailor's level or money available. One boat can therefore serve a couple of steps along the road.

If a manufacturer wants to make them, fine. But they should still be home-buildable, with parity enforced in whatever class rules that may result.

I also agree that getting kids out there in an active lifestyle is the main thing that needs to happen. But access to the boats is a big thing. When I was a kid I had access to water to just goof around in all day. Buying a Sunfish wasn't an option, so I built a knock-off from Glen-L called the Buckboard (still have it). If there was some way I could have built a small cat (given money and skills) at the time I would have been all over that - I remeber drooling over the occasional new Hobie-16 that would show up, but buying one was not an option. So, again, kids need the ability and desire to get out there (and parents need to foster that), but then can't be cut off because a boat costs too much, or appears too complicated. I think time just goofing around on the water is as or is more useful than spending it in regimented racing programs. People need to learn how to simply go sailing for the pure pleasure of it - that's what makes it a lifelong activity.

As for the existing boats - while there are lot of H-14s out there, I think the majority are getting a little old and worn out, as new ones haven't been out there for a long time. I used to think this would be the ultimate boat for this purpose, but honestly something smaller and better handling would be better. I can't get too excited about any of the roto-stuff, and maybe if the Wave didn't look so much like a toy I'd like it better - have sailed them, they're good in that respect, but they just don't capture my imagination, and I wonder if that's a problem with how kids look at them too. A Laser looks like a boat, a Wave looks like a resort toy. Just my opinion.

The kids like to play. I think your making to much of the speed and cool factor. What good is a car top boat that weighs 125lbs do for kids that don't have cars? I would bet that mom can't throw the 125lb boat up on top of a car. If mom isn't involved it probably won't happen. Who do you think is driving the kids to the Opti programs at the clubs during the summer.

The kids in the picture went out for hours that day and took turns jumping off the boat and being rescued by the others. They took turns driving that was teaching them boat handling without knowing it.
4 of the 5 activly race H14's and 16's.
The kid driving (Matt Perkins) sailed this years H16 Nationals at 16 yrs old and did very well.
Sarah(front right) has sailed 3 Nationals with me.

I will admit to thinking the Wave was to clunky and slow when it came out. The eyeball test has shown me otherwise.
The kids go out and have a blast on it.
It's a well thought out boat even if the techies can't admit it.
The fun factor is the most important thing you can promote.

Personally, I understand alot of these posts that say that a new design is not the most important thing, but getting a major youth program going is.

However we must focus on what we CAN do rather then what we should do if some billionair donates a million bucks.

Great idea's about the programs but we are not going to be able to achieve that on the shoe string budget that we have.

So lets not looks at what can't be done, but at what can be done.

At this particular time there simple is NO simple and inexpensive youth boat, PERIOD. Several of us have noted that even lasers go for 4000 Euro's/ 5000 US$. Opti's are ludicrously expensive for what you get as well.

The idea with this F12 is two fold. First to really get a fast, good looking BOAT outthere that really does give young people alot of bang for the buck. If that design happens to be a CATAMARAN like the F12 then I'm really not complianing.

It is my own intention to have the F12 setup as such that as good as everything can be homebuild by a very average father or mother, with maybe the possible exception of the hulls. Not that many WILL homebuild it but because repairing such a craft will be very easy as well. This all translates in low cost and no worrying about your kid damaging the boat too much (in way of cost).

Additionally if we ever want to launch a REAL youth program then we need a basic sailing design that really is inexpensive, easy to repair and really simple to maintain. Sure having 10 boats doing a tour along High-schools in USA will be great but then somebody needs to pay for 10 boats and the related repairs. Current doing that with lasers will cost 50.000 bucks only in purchase of boats. I intend to cut that in halve with the F12's.

If a design is really inexpensive then it becomes alot easier to persuade people to buy it. Currently we don't really have that in youth boat land and certainly not in catamaran land since the M4.3 was discontinued. The Wave being a fun boat but really not to boat to WOW kids and teenagers with. Besides these are only sold in the USA.

So my basic point is yes you are correct that a culture change is probably required but how do we affect that ? Not with F16's, F18's or A-cats. Also not with the Wave or Bravo. So this F12 project is an project to give ourselfs a tool with which we can attempt such a culture chance with some chance of succes. In that way the F12 is needed. Especially because it is NOT a One-Design boat = expensive outdated trash. You'll be amazed how well a concept can be develloped when a few respected amateurs start working on it.

If ever we are going to attemp a major youth program then in the USA we'll have to attract some major sponsor, probably a soda brand or something. For that you'll some flashy boat, some new and "Happening" thing that looks the part. Optis and lasers ain't it nor the Wave, I'm trully sorry. Again the F12 project aims at merging this fashion sense with a well performing but inexpensive (=simple) sailboat. A difficult balancing act I know, but without it I really don't see anybody selling the youth concept to a major sponsor.

But the main topic for now is to get some F12 designing going and only AFTERWARDS decide whether it is worth persuing further and not before anything is known or understood about it.

Wouter

Agreed! Parents are very able to guide a childs general interests by what they talk about and promote. Not to the n'th detail, but in general, they're able to shape the childs views into adult-hood.

We went camping as kids because that's what my parents talked about and did with us. Not because us kids pushed them to go. Of course, when I was 16 I started to grumble about the week we went camping, but it was still a good time once we got there.

I still enjoy camping today, but not because it was my idea when I was a kid. I enjoy water skiing because my dad made it a point to pull me behind the boat. We were very into outside activities and guess what I was doing with my kids as soon as they could walk... get them outside with any sort of sport that keeps their interest.

The parents have to buy into the sport and push the kids to go to the clubs or get them on the lake for the day. You can't promote sailing in school and expect a large increase in club numbers. It needs to be pushed to the parents.

A ready to sail weight of 125 lbs doesn't mean that the thing being lifted to the car top is 125 lbs as well. Almost halve that weight is taken up in the mast sail rudders. If the hulls and beams can be easily disassembled we may even be looking at the heaviest single component weighting only 40 lbs.

We must really learn to think in what CAN be done and not trying to find more things that CAN'T be done.

With respect to kids only playing. I've seen large fleets of extremely dedicated youngsters trying to coach as much speed from their boat as possible. I know the sailing culture were I live is different from the USA, but here we tend to have camps with fleets of easily 15 boats doing competitive sailing for days and there a 10's of such camps in the country. A serious event for young people attacts easily very large fleets.

Wouter

Valid point. You do need something to show if you want any sort of big corporate sponsor (corporations are into changing the world just to make it better). And you need a sponsor if you expect to be able to throw any real money at any sort of culture changing advertising. The way to get the word out about a great thing is not cheap, and spam just doesn't work that well <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

A good product doesn't sell itself, it takes a well thought out marketing campaign to create a perception of the product and make it a success.

I can see it now:
Honey can you take apart the boat and put it on top of your $25,000 SUV or soccer mom van and take it down to the lake and reassemble it for the kids to sail and then reverse the process and bring it home.

The under 40, unmarried, no children divide becomes very clear here.

I'm willing to bet that there isn't anyone out there that has done more regattas with a kid as a crew than me over the last 15 years.
So, I'm not being negative, just realastic.
Most of what I have posted is from observation and what I call the eyeball test and not opinion.

If you want to build a new boat, great.
Just make sure it's ready for the summer and not sitting in the yard. Just take the kids sailing and have fun with them.

Allright lets get back to designing and testing. The other group can work on their youth and parent programs and finding sponsors to finance it.





Alright, for a long time now I really wanted to use metal glues in beachcats. Actually I have tried several glued setups on my own cats, both Prindle 16 and F16. Till now the results are promising.

I also really want to make the F12 platform as much like a normal A-cat platform in appearence as possible.

I really see alot of advantages of the unstayed class 5 rig mainly because the whole setup can be homebuild in a day including having mom sew the mainsail while Dad and kid build up the mast and boom from standardised alu tubes that we bought at the hardware store.

I want to use the same pod to hold the unstayed mast as used on the "Standard" Landyacht (standard is a name) as shown in the picture earlier.

On landyachts this pod is simple welded to the tubing or the other way around. I know it looks fragile but I have yet to see one of those break.

Having said this the pod needs to be made of stainless steel as you can't weld corrosive resistant aluminium very well. However stainless steel is too heavy and too expensive to use for the mainbeam itself. So ideal would be to attach a steel pod to the aluminium mainbeam. Sadly these two materials react to eachother and accellerate corrosion. That is unless they two materials are seperated by an layer of non-conductive material. And a layer of metal glue is just that kind of thing.

The glue that I have used in the past holds up well to salt water and was available in my local hardware store. It was discussed recently in some other thread on this forum. This glue is quoted to hold 160 kg per sq. centimeter. in shear stresses. It will undoubtable be weaker under tensile stresses.

But if we use round 80x2 mm alu tubing for the mainbeam (common as mud) and we weld a 60 mm stainless steel pod to a peice of stainless steel that was first bend halveway around the mainbeam then we can glue those two parts together and avoid tensile stresses in the layer of glue. For the later thing to happen we need round beams, but that is alright as we round alu beams because they are easy to get and cheap.

If run the numbers and a 60 x 60 mm stainless steel base plate should be able to handle the torsional forces. But we need to find out how far we can push it. We can always make the base plate larger and solve our problems that way, but stainless is expensive and the less we have to bend it around the beam the better.

This setup for the mast is simple and effective but it does put alot of torsion on the beamlanding as all the mainsheet tension will be transformed into torsion that must be withstood by the beam being secured to the hulls. The rearbeams are just the same as on catamarans, this included stresses, so we can just copy that of say F16's or F18's. But the F12 mainbeam is significantly different then those of the normal cats.

I would really like to have the mainbeam detachable so the boat can be broken down in hulls and beams and be transported that way. Will make putting the boat on the car top (part by part) alot easier. We can of course glue the mainbeam into place, as we have done with the mast pod but then we will never be able to disassemble it.

It is hard to simulate these parts by mathematics are most assumptions used in these models don't apply anymore. So just building it and test it is far more attractive.

It is this I want to test in simple test setups.

But I also would love to test glueing the alu beam to say a block of tropical wood and have that laminated into the hull (or a jig if it is a test setup) and see if it will hold. Afterall glueing the beams in will be really attractive from a cost and homebuild point of view. We just need to learn whether such a block can be laminated well into the hull itself. The math suggests that it can be done that way. But again math has problems with respect to local stress concentrations as the hulls are not simply a uniform material like metal. If it all where metal then I would know from the simulation but the hulls really aren't.

I think all the other items have been solved. At least I think so.

Can you help me in this respect Flatlander 18 ? See also my private reply.

Wouter

Echo what Wouter said. Maybe it's time for a new post.

F12 Design and Development

I'd love to see the developement of a new boat to fascilitate the intro of cat sailing to our youth. However I can tell you that Pat and 204 are masters of this already. For me, I always wanted to share my love of sailing with my nieces and nephews. The right opportunities have not been there, and I haven't made the effort needed to create them. When my fleet hosted the H16 Nationals last September, I had the chance to meet Pat, and a surprising number of families from 204. This fleet has succeded where many have not. It may be due to chance factors, like there being a good number of similarly aged kids, but the results speak for themselves, ie... Steeplechase results. I love this thread, and would like to go on, but don't have time. Design and build the boat! But follow 204's formula for generating interest! I'm very proud of 448, but we don't compare to our Northwestern cousins. My hat is off to Pat and his fleet. I don't know them well, but I am thrilled by what I observed of 204's sailors.

Thanks Brian
I would say that the closest thing I see to what we have been lucky enough to accomplish (yes,lots of luck) is what the people and Fleets of division 7 are doing.
John is a part of that and the enthusiasm from people like Chris Wessels and Todd Wilson who put on the 14 Nationals is what got me to drive to Iowa to sail. I'm too big for the 16 so the 14 is pretty funny for me to be on.(kinda like Chris Farley " Fat guy on a little boat") Hope to play with the big kids some day and have an F18.
The 14's had 35 boats and was the largest single hand Nationals per Mark's tally sheet.
The boats and people are out there.
It's a big time and money commitment to grow sailing.

Not sure what you mean by "pod" but in the Fed-5 landsailor in your first picture, the mast sets in a cup at the bottom and a ring about a foot or two above the cup.

How about bolt a cup to the bottom of the dolphin striker and the ring to the main beam?

A landsailer doesn't go downwind (at least relative to apparent wind) - that sort of rig might need some modification for a waterborne boat.

Hey guys, this is not a ... or ... decision. You do your things and the other do theirs. As far as I can see both approaches are complementary.

And no matter what you guys say, this F12 looks a whole lot more practical then the H16's and H14's.


Wouter

I had to give it a name and English is not my native language. Correct me it there is a better word for it.

For the remainer, there are several different ways in which the mast is supported on these class 5 cars. I have two class 5 cars and both use a setup very similar to the "Standard"




How is the dolphinstriker in turn supported ? In short, this doesn't solve much. Additionally the F12 can easily go without a dolphin striker strap as the mast loads on a unstayed rig are much lower. Not having a D-strap both lighter and cheaper.




It may, although I have sailed straight downwind with it on occasion and it does handle those loads without a fuss. Some kind of kicking strap will be needed to keep the sail into shape though on pure downwinds, this is something I find on my landyachts as well. Often a simple line will do the trick quite well (no blocks or cleats)

Thanks for the tips.

Wouter

May be merit to in front of the beam and below, but does an unstayed rig on a seemingly massive beam need a dolphin striker? Thinking more about a striker like post that extends below the main beam may provide the necessary support for a cup/pod/mast base.

Not doubting you Wouter but do you really think this adhesive will work? Or is it, let's prove it won't work? It certainly seems very simplistic.

What is the different between having the whole cup above the beam or halve halve on top and halve below it ? I only see the later setup as making the mainbeam weaker as you will be taken away material to let the mast pass through the beam.





It does doesn't it ? But there are three reasons why I think it is something we should try.

-1- The most sought after aircraft used on dirtstrips in Africa is the F-27 transport plane. It is a design from the late 40's early 50's and because it was designed and made in a country devastated by the WW2 they could not use rivets. Didn't have the machines for it. So they tried metal glue to glue the whole plane together. These planes (average age = 45 years) are still going strong despite being used for decades on rough dirt strips for decades. That is after they were sold off by western airlines completing their commercial life there. Alot of metal glue development came from these airplanes. Before carbon application most race cars where made of glued together alu components.

-2- experiences with my own beams. I glued several repairs and they held up. My mast rotation arm is made from glued together alu components as well, that was after the bolts and rivet original design failed (broke)

-3- I used too much (plain) sealant on my F16 beams. This year I had to take my boat apart and it was a huge task to get the beams to seperated from the hulls. We eventually just spooned as much sealant out as we could before seperating the parts. At one corner we failed, hull was making large cracking noices and just left that beam in place. This was not even a real glue but just plain sealant. That got me thinking. Why would it be so hard to seperate those beams. The only reason was that was so much surface area that even a rather small amount of sticking per square "whatever" would be multiplied into very large holding forces. This is the same trick that flies jump jets. The underpressure per square inchs is less then a baby sucking but becuase their is so many square inches in total on the wing it can carry many tons of weight. Glue works in the same way. Actually soldering works in the same way as well. You don't need high strength per se just sufficient surface area.


So now I'm at the point where I'm convinced that we should proof that this setup doesn't work. We may all be very surprised. Having said this some extra care need to be given to the shapes of the objects as glue normally doesn't withstand tensile stresses very well. So you don't want flat surfaces but rather curved surfaces as here nearly all the loads will be taken up by shear stresses in some part of the glue layer instead of tensile stresses. Round objects seem very attractive here.

Plus we must also not forget that the F12 is a small craft with mostly very modest loads. If glue works then this boat is a prime candidate.

Lets face it, if it works then this is a major breakthrough for the F12 design. Production will then become exceptionally easy and lightweight.




I really do think that it will work.

Afterall glue is currently holding the A-cat beams to many the A-cat hulls at this time as well. So the principle is not in doubt, the question is whether it will also work in our application. But even then we can make the components bigger (more surface area for the glue) till the setup does hold.

read thsi info sheet for more info : Araldite glue info sheet

Wouter

I'll make a trip by Airparts on the way home tonight,


They can cut me a piece of S/S. What thickness? They will be able to bend or recommend the shop to bend a radius matching up to 180 degrees of the 80mm main beam.


And then a X mm length of X mm diameter S/S tubing (with X mm wall) welded to the center of the 60x60 base?

It solves the problem of the moment connection to the main beam without resort to exotic materials or construction techniques.

As for the rig, what I meant to say was that landsailors sail at very low angles due to their speed, for a watersailor you'll probably want a sail with much more shape.

Let me go done and measure the diameters of my class 5 landyachts.

But before you spend any money make sure you can get hold of the glue. If you can't then buying SS stuff will be useless.

Also we need to work out how to test this setup before we have anything build. See later in this post.

....

Okay may two landyachts have a "pod" of :

-1- 60 mm x 4 mm steel ; length 420 mm

-2- 62 mm x 3 mm steel (even appears to be 2.5 mm wall) ; length 240 mm

The second pod (-2-) is the newer landyacht and before this one the builder had build at least 3 others. He said to me that a few lessons learned went into my landyacht. I bought the yacht of yet another person so the builder wasn't bullshitting me.

The bottom section of two alu masts I have/measured are 48x4.5 mm and 50x8 mm, the first mast quoted is the youngest.

Most of these components were chosen on account of their availability. Both yachts and masts were homebuild. Some drivers like to have their pod diameter to be noticeably larger then the mast bottom diameter so that the mast can move upright when riding downwind after being raked far back during the upwind. This has to do with the position of the weight and wheels of the craft. These considerations shouldn't concern us. So I guess we'll be smart to start at :

pod : 55 mm x 3 mm steel length 300 mm

mast bottom 50 mm x 5 mm alu.

This should give a rather tight fit. And 2 inch alu tubing has a 50.4 mm outer diameter so that should be easy to find in the USA.

I'm looking to make the mast pod something like this :




Where the top pod (steel tube) is welded to the bend steel plate and which is then later glued to the top of the alu 80x2 mm mainbeam.

I would like to go close to 180 degrees bend on the steel plate as that really helps avoiding tensile stresses in the glue layer. There is no need to go for a full 180 degree. Something like 160 will be fine. Additionally having a large wrap around really increases the surface area, resulting in lower stresses in the glue layer overall. This makes the joint more acceptable of "bad" glueing.

I also give you the design of a class 5 mast, again note that several methods exist to build up such a mast. My youngest mast uses less components as the builder was able to find tubes will thicker walls then 2 mm.






I want to test this setup under some considerable bending loadings fore-aft and side-to-side and see if the glue holds.

This means we have to lock the ends of the 80x2 alu beam in some way. Does anybody have a good idea on how to do this in an inexpensive manner. Remember this 80x2 beam will be under alot of torsion loading. Simply jamming it in a vice will most definately not work.

We could glue the ends to a wide wooden beam, making sure that teh glue area is many times larger then of the mast pod. These beams can then be linked up by a crossbeam from which to mount the mainsheet system. We then only need to insert a tube acting as a mast with a boom supported by a high strength line and start pulling it apart.





If this fails after say 3 times the expect laods then we will cut the pod increasingly smaller till the vertical part of the pod bends or deforms then we know hoe tall the pod at least needs to be. On the "standard" landyacht this pod looks rather short indeed.

Would something like this work for you Flatlander ?

Wouter

I have used this glue (2015) many times with mixed success for bonding aluminium to aluminium. I have to admit I gave up on it in the end as I could not get consistent results. Some joints are still going strong after two years, some identical joints failed within days under light loads.

I believe the key phrase in the document you posted is "apply to a pre-treated and dry surface". What pre-treatment is necessary to get a high strength reliable joint? I thought that I was careful in my pre-treatment. I would anodise, lightly abrade then and then degrease with acetone.

The problem as I see it with these glues is consistency especially in the environments used by a home builder.

The following document lists the surface preparation and pre-treatment recommended by araldite.

http://www.huntsman.com/structural-adhesives/Media/surfacePretreatment_userGuide_Uk.pdf

I would be keen to hear from anyone who has successfully used this product and what pre-treatment they used.

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

Let me get rolling on the metal fab and when complete we'll discuss the testing method further.

So that's in progress, what's next? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gareth,

I mostly used non-anodised aluminium in my glue jobs.

The alu-oxide surface layer does interfere badly in other situations like welding so maybe it does so too with respect to glueing.

Also preparation would probably scaring the glued area with small surface cuts. It needs to be as rough as possible. I think in the document they refer to sandblasting of the area that is to be glued. This does of course two things. It removes the alu-oxide surface layer and (can) make the area rought.

Also Gareth can you describe some of the joints where the glue failed. Can you have been suffering from peel-off failure ? Were you lift one tip of the jointed material breaking the bound and progress further each time breaking only a small portion of the bound instead of the whole bound in one go.

I have thought about this peel-off problem and I think that blind riveting the corners of the plate should take care of that to a large extend.

This is all very interesting and I would love to hear more about your experience.

With regard to anodising. I hardly have any anodized aluminium on my boat anymore. Only my mainbeam and mast are anodised. All the other stuff like rearbeam, boom, spi pole , mast rotation arm are non-anodised tubes. They hold up just fine. They turn a little dark overtime but that is it.

I won't try to hard to get the F12 components to be anodised. If I build one then I won't anodise the alu parts.

Wouter

I'll go after Dotan and see what their rudders costs. In short I'll work on the rudder setup.

The mast is pretty much finished as we just copy that of the landyachts. Ohhh, I will contact a friend with a "standard" landyacht and get his pod measurements and if possible his mast measurements.

The rearbeam design I will just take of my own F16 boat (3 years and still going strong), so that is finished as well.

I'll work out the traveller system and prep that to be test by someone as well. This testing will probably be done by myself as I have such a system on another landyacht (I need to clear out my shed !)

The only real thing we are left with are the hull really. Gareth, is that new material you are using for your hulls attractive for this F12 ? Any other suggestions in the way of material for the hulls. How much do you know about core matt hull production ?

hum, Like I said most testing needs to be done on the beam landing and pod, the rest has pretty much been developped to a good working design in both cats and landyachts already.


Wouter

Ohh flatlander,

We need to work out how big we are going to make the mast base plate.

Is it possible that you first get some info of the steel company and then get back with us. Then we can look over the design one more time and make sure we get everything right.

Currently I'm thinking a base plate of 160 degrees around a 80x2 tube with 100 mm length. That would be almost a 100x100 mm square. Thickness of the steel plate ? Well, find out till what thickness they can bend the plate around 80 mm tube.

That should be enough to use a safety factor of 3. In the final design I'd like more but I want the joint to break to give us at least some idea of where the limit it. If it holds up under everything then we still don't know much.

Wouter

I understand what you mean but I would first like to try to do without it. The simpler the better.





That is absolutely correct, however this only means that the F12 sails must be cut with alot more luff round. Actually the Moth sailboats use a sleeved mainsail very similar to the "Standard" landyachts. This gives me extra assurances that we can succesfully convert the class 5 landyacht rig to a sailboat. Will probably also need to widen the sleeve itself so there is enough room to have the straight mast slide through the curved sleeve.

Will do. This may entail a trip to a sheet metal shop as well as supplier so may not be tomorrow.

Flatlander,

I have time and I rather do this project at a calm pace then rush it.

The only reason I post alot of message right now is because I want to keep the momentum in the discussions going.

So take your time, lets try to plan well and spend as little money on development as possible

Wouter

Ok, If you must design a new boat.
Why would you start by developing a mast base that has poor repeatability in the home build arena. Glue seems like a bad idea.
If the boat remains a take apart as discussed then why not sleeve your pod(mast base). Slide on the front cross bar and then pin it.(does that make sense?) No bending required.
Just coping and a weld.
You could actually have mast rake adjustment if desired.
It could also be all aluminum if in a fresh water application.

I would think that Twintex would be ideal as it is both lightweight and very robust i.e. will take more abuse than anything else you could build with, but its not really suitable for homebuild.

I don't have any experience of core matt hull production.

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

The problem Im having Mary is Im doing the pied piper at the club with one 420 and 14 kids doing circuits three in the boat in shallow on race day then I pack the 420 up and race. The kids that then go on their dads cat and have a blast think the 420 is boring and go of it for a month, meanwhile the women sit on the beach and watch. Now I have a couple of guys who would production line the homebuild with me and next summer we could have five or six cats in a class racing. We get a pile of kids out for sailing lessons for the next two weeks they come out religiously every year the kids love it and the parents love the child care. If the kids were excited they would nag the parents into submission on a yearly rental if I maintained them and organised storage and imagine the excitement when they go and compete at other clubs as a six or eight year old, of course the name has to be F10 or F12 I want them laying awake in bed dreaming of a blade at the moment theyre begging for a Moth. Imagine Phil and Wouter getting harassed by 10year olds for technical info and design improvements <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. We may even end up getting some of the mums on the water. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
yet another long ramble from me
regards

Situations and problems are different in different parts of the world and in different parts of the same country and even in different sailing clubs in the same region.

In your case if your club only has one 420 and all those kids, it sounds like a perfect situation for introducing a fleet of little cats. Hopefully, the "speed disease" would be contagious and spread like an epidemic throughout the other clubs in your area and then all of Australia -- and then to the rest of the world....well, at least in the PERFECT world, that is what would happen. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, I have my doubts that U.S. sailors are going to want to build boats.

In your case, if you have a team willing to build some boats, I think it would be a great idea to REQUIRE the kids who are going to sail the boats to be involved in the building process, so they will appreciate the boats and take care of them and try to avoid running into each and other and damaging them.

This has been a very effective policy at Larry Hale's Scout Camp up in the Florida Panhandle. They get old Hobie 16's donated to them, and the kids, both boys and girls, have to do most of the grunt work to renovate them and also the regular maintenance work.

Maybe you should add a hose clamp on either side of the pod sleeve, going around the main beam. It should make a glue failure less catastrophic by keeping the mast captive if the pod rotates about the beam.

Just got back from Orange Bowl regatta, my kid's second year sailing there. He placed 30th out of 69 boats in the Opti Green Fleet. There were another 185 boats in the Opti Gold fleet. (the gold fleet was made up of 3 age divisions and had 4 sub-fleets rotating across 2 starts of approx 90 boats each.)

The Opti Green fleet there does a tremendous job of making the regatta fun for all beginning racers. It was something Joey very much wanted to do again after last year, even though he finished at the back of the pack last year.

http://www.coralreefyachtclub.org/index....p;edit_id=18535


I think this is a rather old picture from the Orange bowl venue.

Kids having FUN in Optimists?
According to the people on this forum that's impossible so it must be a lie.
How could kids have fun on such a low tech out dated boat?
The 250+ Opti kids in Miami last week had a terrible time. They just can't stop smiling for long enough to realize it.

[/quote]

Kids having FUN in Optimists?
According to the people on this forum that's impossible so it must be a lie.
How could kids have fun on such a low tech out dated boat?
The 250+ Opti kids in Miami last week had a terrible time. They just can't stop smiling for long enough to realize it. [/quote]

Yeah, but I'd guess that these kids have never been on a cat in their lives. Get them into something new that looks cool, is fast, and not too complicated and I guarentee they will be hooked. I started out on a Sunfish 3 years ago and thought it was the greatest boat ever. Then I discovered the catamaran......after that, there was no more Sunfish, and instead I bought myself an H16. What I'm saying is that if you give them the option of the F12 or the Opti, I guarentee they'd go for the cat. But personally, I don't think the purpose of this, "campaign" is to convert mono sailors to cat sailors. I think we should try to aim for the kids who have never sailed before, like kids who don't have parents who are active sailors, get these F12's running, then offer lessons or seminars to teach them. Parents who aren't active sailors don't want to lug a boat to the lake or wherever to watch their kid sail, they want to drop their kid off, know that they are supervised, and know that they will have a good time sailing (or racing) a bunch of club boats. I haven't had the time to read the whole post, but I think what Wouter is getting at with the low cost, low maintience boat is an excellent idea. I just dont think that we should be trying to convert mono sailors, if they want to switch because their friends are having way more fun on the cats then they are on the Opti's let them. But if they want to stay with the Optimist let them, but lets aim for the non-sailing chidren of non-sailing parents. That was me a few years ago, but I discovered sailing and eventually discovered the cat.......Also, I say stay away from the wave design and stick to a boat with atleast a single trap. It really doesnt add that much weight to put stays on a mast and I know that F12 sailors trapped out flying by Opti's and Lasers will certainly raise eyebrows in the mono fleets.

I don't recall anyone saying you can't have fun on a mono, but i might be wrong. I agree a new thread should be started 'F12 design and development'. Then we can avoid the arguement of monos v cats and juniors.

I've tried to keep my points as to the design, but failed miserably and started bringing the other aspects of which we shouldn't concerned about, e.g enticing the kids of monos to cats, instead of the real issue raised of getting kids to sail, for that I apologise.

Regards

I'm just guessing here, but I assume you are older than 8? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though, I too started out 6 years ago (whooo...coming up on 7) and I can identify with the realization of what cat sailing offers. However, to an 8 year old kid, that's a lot of strings, a lot of power, and a lot of boat. More importantly, there are few kids that age sailing on these things and most 8 year olds (that I know anyway...admittedly not a whole lot of 'em) have a "pack" mentality and enjoy events where they are surrounded by a lot of other kids.

Pat,

I was ready to roll out a similar design to yours. I'm "seeing" where they're going with this and warming up to the idea. We'll see how the testing goes. We know we can always fall back on a mechanical connection. Thanks for pointing out the AL freshwater option.

Are there kids who can understand AND PRACTICE rule 14? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />