Gilo,

You can get a min weight F16 and anyone always could. But even youself decided against the carbon mast option for other reasons. The carbon mast upgrade maybe be more expensive but it isn't expensive in absolute terms compared to the prices paid for competitive aluminium masted F18's. See my earlier posting in this thread for price data.

Therefor the builders can provide everybody with a min weight boat; it is the choice of every F16 owner whether they want to pay for that or not. Alot of us made the personal choice to not do that; alot of others (mostly Stealth owners) did.

This is exactly the same as the Tornado class is now, every owner can still race with aluminium, several still do, just not the top 50 crews. For them the carbon upgrade is peanuts in cost compared to their other costs like travelling.

F16 is no different in this respect.

Wouter

Rolf, I think we need you in here to delete posts and lock this topic!!

It has clearly gone off the original tightly defined rules you set.... Oh hang on its a forum and the discussion hs evolved <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I leave my PC for 18 hours and look what happens!!

So many great comments to get stuck into <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So if 5kg difference is all but negligible to performance why not raise the min weight by 5kg so that you now have te min weight set to the average of the current fleet thereby ensuring the racing is just a little bit more even and the boats are possibly just a little bit cheaper.

Seems that everyone wins hey?

The RETAIL price for your examples is less than a RETAIL price for a F18.

the PRODUCTION cost for an F16 with carbon mast and to class min weight is MORE than the production cost of an F18.

Do you think that just because you have 2ft shorter hulls its going to be a whole lot cheaper to build?

The components on an optimised F16 are much more expensive to produce. Carbon mast, rudder boxes, beams (even alloy would be the same cost as F18), same number of blocks and ropes etc. So how exactly will an F16 be cheaper to produce than an F18?? Where are the savings? all I see are more expensive components and more time to produce the hulls with more expensive materials.

And what a wonderful 18 hours it was!

I hope that all the class members who frequent this forum have taken my advice and put you on "ignore" so they cannot even see your posts.

You are free to pontificate all you want and discuss things with yourself.

That's what free speech is about -- you are free to speak, and we are free to not listen.

For the record: I do not know Sue, have had no contact with her and have no idea who she is or where she comes from.

You Muppets have just shot down a potential class member wih your paranoia and crappy attitude to people with different points of view. Well done.

Tim, That example above is what can happen in F16 right now!!!!

The class rules are so loose that someone can build the super pimped boat and if they point it in the right direction on the race course you wont see which way they went...Maybe the class could survive that but it would forever change it. You would have to either ban the super boat (for meeting the rules??) or you would all have to build super boats (not cheap) or just get used to having your butt kicked everytime someone turned up with a super F16...

I don't have a chicken in this ring, but I feel the need to point out that the assertion that Peter's $50k 18HT killed the class is not correct. There were other, much larger issues going on at the time that had nothing to do with the class rules.

John, Want to buy a Chicken?

Very true, but let's let those dogs sleep right now.

Wouter made a funny. Ok I laughed. I always thought it would be neat to build an all carbon H16. Spars, tramp frame, hulls, blades, etc. That would be fun just to have. I would need a winning lottery ticket first.

O come on Mary let's let them start talking about how the 18HT class died. Please
This F16 forum is way more exciting than the F18 forum. We just talk about boat tuning and up coming events.

Maybe we should send Macca over to your forum to spice things up. Like maybe the minimum weight for the F18's should be reduced enough so the F16's can be part of the F18 class. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok, time to throw in my chicken.
All these arguments are because Macca wants the min. weight raised so the "big manufacturers" as we call them, can build a heavier boat than anyone else can, at the same price. Hmm. If we raise the min. weight, their boats can be competitive.
Of course, as he says you could get AHPC to build an all-carbon Viper and shed 30kg, to make it 107kg, at a gazillion times the price of a Blade / Stealth etc, and it will be a whole 3 or 5kg lighter than the Blade. Hmmm.
Sounds like we have a whole lot to be worried about. (Note : I have been told I have an overly-enthusiastic sarcasm gland.)
The very sad thing is that through all the responses he is getting, he will collect some F16 owners who are like-minded, and will stop at nothing to acchieve his goal - he has proven this beyond a doubt with his persistence.
One has to ask what his objectives are and why so persistent - in one of the threads he was linked to being a pro sailor with an affiliation to a manufacturer. I`d stop guessing his motives right about when that was disclosed.

Now for my last comment - Why do we need the "big manufacturers" for support, when we have the new, innovative builders, some small, some not so small (think Vectorworks), who are willing to build to the rules, understanding the fine line between weight, strength, stiffness of platform, cost of manufacture, and reasonable profit margins. They might not hit all the targets on the bullseye, but they get very close in all respects, and produce a hard-to-beat package, which is why the "big manufacturers" are crying - they can`t compete and it`s starting to hurt.
Perhaps the "small manufacturers" are the big manufacturers of the future. Perhaps the catamaran sailing scene worldwide no longer needs (or can sustain)big manufacturers with big profit margins.
Perhaps the reason the big manufacturers have to have big profit margins is so they can pay big names to sail their boats, in the hope of selling more boats to the average joe (us.) Perhaps the Pro sailors are getting nervous...(see previous note on sarcasm.)

Mary are you and Rick coming to Spring Fever? If so maybe you can check the scales when we weigh some of those F16's. We need someone that is impartial <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am not going to get into this debate again as you already know my views and we could not have another sailor agree with Macca..... However the above comment is a bit rich. Guess sailing is not for all the rock stars as they care about an extra kg or 5 on their boats.

18HT death.... lets do it. It didn't have much to do with some dude spending 50k spicing one up though.

You know that some companies that make F18s have to overbuild them ON PURPOSE to get up to weight? I find that silly.

I think I have some money to throw around. What could I get if I had Matt make me a one off all carbon boat with canted hulls, foil rudders, carbon mast, carbon beams, wing sail? hmmm.... what else could I get? In the end I would have to add weight. And, some dude who knew how to sail better would still beat me. Even if I did all of that and ended up with a 50k boat, according to the rules AS THEY ARE NOW, I do NOT think I could buy myself wins.
And my 2c- 4-10kg means NOTHING when you look at the variability in crew weights.

Hi Stephen,
I`m no rock star, but just curious as to how much performance there really is in 5kg. As a percentage of the overall boat weight, it represents 4,67% of the boat weight, does this make it 4,67% faster ? If it did, all the top sailors would drill holes all over the decks of their boats, and make sure they don`t capsize.
If you take the F16 specs and punch them into the ISAF rating calculator, you might find a 1% gain (tell me if it`s more, I am a bored insomniac, but not THAT bored.) If I`m right, that`s a 36 second advantage in a 1hour race. Now at weekend-warrior levels it MIGHT get noticed, but if your opposition can sail half a degree higher than you can on a 5kg heavier boat, I`d guess it would be a fair fight.
My guess is having all the boats at min. weight with correctors would attract all the rock stars and the big manufacturers, a sure way to kill a class if ever I`ve seen one.

Oh yeah, wanted to add my boat data to the thread that Rolf locked :
My boat weighed in at 99kg sloop without spinnaker. Rough guess 105kg with kite, it hasn`t been weighed with one. My mainsail and jib are a very heavy cloth to withstand Cape Town weather, we don`t replace sails too often. I`ve weighed mainsail, jib & boom at 20kg, could lose 8kg easily. (boom is a alu. dinghy mast section, at least 5kg.) Of course I have 12,5sqm main on a 7,3m mast, is my boat F16 compliant, yes if I carry 2kg of lead. It won`t "rate" as fast as full F16, but will still win on line in over 25knots against a lot of "faster" designs with taller mainsails and bigger kites. Unless the sailors on the more powerful boat are a LOT better than I am.
The Mozzie with kite costs around 6000 Euro (new) and is only 10% slower (on paper) than a full F16.

As a separate issue, I didn`t know the Spitfire was "un-grandfathered" It`s an interesting issue, as it weighs a LOT more than min. F16 weight (135kg I think), but has a slightly bigger jib & spinnaker, the only differences if I`m correct, and it`s ISAF rating is so similar to F16 that it was initially included. I raise this because it`s a valid argument that a well-designed boat over the min. weight can be fast enough to be rated at a similar enough ISAF rating to allow it to compete with F16`s on the water in real terms, which is what F16 is all about, not "how heavy is your tiller extension" I don`t know much about the Viper, but if it`s similarly designd with respect to hull volume to the Spitfire, it might just surprise a lot of people.

Actually, I can't think of anybody more impartial than I am. But you need a class officer or somebody the class designates to do that.

I don't know if you have seen the scales the F18 class uses, but we saw it in action a couple years ago, and it is pretty high-tech -- sure beats the double set of bathroom scales that have been used at other events I have been at. It would be worth it to take advantage of those scales if you are going to be at that regatta.

It's a lot easier (and more accurate) than going to a truck scale and weighing your trailer with the boat on and with the boat off and figuring out the difference. PLUS, there would be witnesses when you do it at Spring Fever. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

P.S. I LOVE that campground at Spring Fever.