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Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #238644
10/04/11 06:35 PM
10/04/11 06:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.


Don't be hatin, there is nothing sexier than a 50 year old fat man getting into his tights in the boat park. That's right ladies I'm doin it all for you. I can't count the number of times I've caught Beth trying to sneak a peak!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: David Ingram] #238649
10/04/11 07:19 PM
10/04/11 07:19 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
Stop saying the rule change is keeping you off the water.


I never said that. I said that its not exactly making me get over the current lack of motivation to sail that I've had lately.

Maybe if I wore spandex I wouldn't get butt chafe-age as bad as I do.

Quote
(There is nothing that PHRF/Portsmouth or SCHRS doesn't solve here!)


Amazingly I agree with Mark here.

If you want to sail your N20 with aftermarket sails - to the Open handicap fleet with you!

Don't try and redefine the class because you feel butt hurt at getting beat by F18's and F16's.

I got over that a long time ago.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #238656
10/04/11 09:56 PM
10/04/11 09:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Alright that is enough. Stop saying the rule change is keeping you off the water. That's not what is keeping you off the water and you know it. In fact you got well pissed off at me about 16 months ago becuase Thart and I were busting your balls about not sailing which predates this rule change by almost a year. The fact that your boat stays in the driveway has absolutely NOTHING to do with the O20 concept. You chose not to sail for reasons that are uniquely your own my friend.

Unless you're willing to lead the charge back into the OD camp, let these people be. The dark cloud that is you is bringing me down, damn... I thought Mark was negative.


You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.
Tad, Maybe the feeling you have when you look at your boat is just that you've realized it may be time for a different boat. I can relate to that.


Look at the boat, realize it's time for a different one, and can't figure out how to get there. I've definitely been there.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: David Ingram] #238657
10/04/11 09:57 PM
10/04/11 09:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.


Don't be hatin, there is nothing sexier than a 50 year old fat man getting into his tights in the boat park. That's right ladies I'm doin it all for you. I can't count the number of times I've caught Beth trying to sneak a peak!



Oh good gawd. My brain eyes! I'm blind. That's just wrong. We once had to have a sit-down discussion with a fleet sailor because of the attire he chose to wear during / after sailing. That crap was so sheer, we gained insight as to his religious background. wrong wrong wrong. Ding, I expect better. 50 is an excuse for a lot of things, but you're supposed to give us things to look forward to....things like having really tall bushes by the street in your front yard because "every man should be able to walk out his front door and scratch his balls". That kind of stuff....the stuff that allows you to appreciate your aging manhood but doesn't make everyone have to look at it.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Jake] #238664
10/05/11 06:52 AM
10/05/11 06:52 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Alright that is enough. Stop saying the rule change is keeping you off the water. That's not what is keeping you off the water and you know it. In fact you got well pissed off at me about 16 months ago becuase Thart and I were busting your balls about not sailing which predates this rule change by almost a year. The fact that your boat stays in the driveway has absolutely NOTHING to do with the O20 concept. You chose not to sail for reasons that are uniquely your own my friend.

Unless you're willing to lead the charge back into the OD camp, let these people be. The dark cloud that is you is bringing me down, damn... I thought Mark was negative.


You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.
Tad, Maybe the feeling you have when you look at your boat is just that you've realized it may be time for a different boat. I can relate to that.


Look at the boat, realize it's time for a different one, and can't figure out how to get there. I've definitely been there.


Me and Undecided have at least 3.5 more years together.

Wife has to get through with all her various internships, residencies and other bullcrap before I can even broach the topic without getting yelled at.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: ThunderMuffin] #238667
10/05/11 07:59 AM
10/05/11 07:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
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mini Offline
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Captín,

What are you really expecting to happen here?

There are a fair number of I20 out there. The class is theoretically run by the factory, which as far as Iíve seen does nothing. The few active guys have tried to generate some interest, but cannot even agree to take over the organization themselves (Ding and his apathy comment are spot on)

Now you are tying again to start an F20 class. This was killed in the past by the I20 crowd refusing to compromise. (This is their right by the way.) Your current rule set is now another political BS compromise driven by a few responders (mostly I20 guys I would guess), who if history prevails will never actually join the class anyway, at least in a supporting role. (These guys are bitching now they do not want to race because somebody might have a new sail Ė and you expect them to come out when the boat next to them might weight 20 lbs less???) You are now far enough away from the I20 rule that they will not change, you eliminate several current designs, and have nothing of interest to present to even a home builder to try and make a boat to fit.

To get new boats into the mix, there has to be 1) An active race schedule already in place, or 2) Some other incentive for a builder to make a boat. The I 20 is the only existing boat that could be qualified to be currently active, unless you throw in a few H20 with spins. Not even the current builder of the I20 is interested in the prospect of helping this. The other reason there are 20ís of other design showing up is to provide a chance to achieve line honors at races. The biggest fastest boat generates press and advertising value for the company/ designer or whatever. Building a politically compromised I 20 will get nothing in the way of interest from any builder and without boats you will not get the racing no matter how many posts you throw out there.

If you really want to race a 20 and get the fleet going then fast, then get off your butt and round up the I 20 guys out there.

Otherwise just open up the B class rules 20 long 10 wide and some limit on sail area Ė all else goes. See what eventually gets built for line honor boats. It took a long time for the C-class but it is still going.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: mikekrantz] #238668
10/05/11 08:17 AM
10/05/11 08:17 AM
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Posts: 72
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BadLatitude1337 Offline
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Originally Posted by mikekrantz
So what I need to do is set up my F20c with the F18 beams to qualify as an "Open 20"...


well the sail set and mast are to large but put a n20 mast on it and if the weight is over 350 your good to go


Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: BadLatitude1337] #238669
10/05/11 08:53 AM
10/05/11 08:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 72
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BadLatitude1337 Offline
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Tad do you want to keep over paying for parts from nacra? Win you can by sails from a loft of your choice for half the cost? And put sum development in to them yourself? Nacra does not even support the fleet/OD class anymore. The parts prices will go up due to the fact that they are now special order parts!!!

As for the nacra 6.0 I assume youíre talking about the class dyeing around the time with the whole NA thing. You were not even sailing then how would you know? Take it from me a as I worked at a dealer forever and have sold thousands of nacra parts/boats . The 6.0 class died win the I18/I20 came out its a case of what happens win the factory stops supporting a class.

The N20 is my favorite boat of all time but they will let it die off just like the 6.0!!!
In my opinion the class is gone either way. But I would still like to see a fast 20 foot class.
The N20 is a good starting point for this new class to get off the ground and thatís it. I intend to build a boat to the class specs

Please remember no one if forcing anything on you tad feel free to keep your boat stock and sail in the OD Class if thatís what you like thatís your right. There is a lot more stock 20ís than open 20ís




Open20NA 1337 FOR THE WIN!!!
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: BadLatitude1337] #238670
10/05/11 09:26 AM
10/05/11 09:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Charlie,

I appreciate what you're trying to do - but the fact of the matter is that you're trying to change the rules that we all originally signed up for when we bought the boats.

Do I like the fact that Nacra won't support the class? No. Do I think that what you're doing is going to fix that? Not at all.

The fact of the matter is that I could go out and buy new aftermarket sails - sure. I could spend $1000 on a new main, new spin or whatever.

Then Captain Moneybags could go out and buy a new set of custom made 3DI sails (or whatever the latest wizzbang material is these days). At least the F18 class has reasonable restrictions on them.

I mean with these rules, you can build a wing and put it on the boat and be perfectly legal to race. How is that going to help the N20 persevere?

I think that there's not much you can do. The Tybee 500's F18 results domination signaled the death knell of the class - and its just going to keep declining. Open sails aren't going to make people buy the boat more than they are now.

BTW, if I wanted to "compete" in the O20, the first thing I would do is pop my deck lids off, and grind out as much material on the inside of the hull as I could to get closer to the 350lbs limit. That would therefore negate my participation in any further OD N20 events.

I don't have so much of a problem with you guys up in Pcola making your own rules to race under. Whatever makes you happy. What I'm more upset at is that this will now apparently split the 20 fleet racing down at Tradewinds, and I can imagine other popular regional events.

But I should probably keep my mouth shut anyways since I've got between little and no motivation to go sailing right now anyways.

Why am I even here?

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: BadLatitude1337] #238671
10/05/11 09:27 AM
10/05/11 09:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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so why not just coordinate with all the I20/N20 owners and figure out a regatta schedule like almost every other class does? Then you have a class without having to go through all the work to set up an Open or F group?

Was it price or quality control that was the biggest issue with EP?

If the owners decide as a group to make a sailplan change, why not approach EP (as a group) and phase in like they did with the rudders and mid-pole snuffer?

If you're not trying to regain the moniker of "Fastest beachcat on the planet" (or whatever), why are we arguing about changing the boat to make it faster? Why not work on making it (the boat and the sailors) more fun & inviting (Ding's spandex notwithstanding!). I think that would generate far more participation...

I'd have one right now if they only made garages in my deed-restricted neighborhood 6" longer frown

And Tad, I'd be happy to sail with you if MICreek isn't. With as close as you guys are with John and Rick, you could "4-boat" test pretty much whenever with about an hour's +/- travel.


Jay

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Capt_Cardiac] #238677
10/05/11 02:08 PM
10/05/11 02:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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the people who came up with this stuff are trying to maintain the N20 as a viable racing platform. I wasn't into cat sailing at the time, but even with the attempts to maintain the N6.0 class, it still went bye bye because the N20 came out. The N20 was a reasonable boat to jump to from the 6.0. What was the price of a N20 relative to the cost of a new 6.0 at the time?
The issues:
1. the manufacturer doesn't give a crap about the N20 anymore so isn't going to market (or make for that part) the N20. This pretty much eliminates the SMOD aspect of the class. If this is eliminated, then who would keep buying outdated OD sails for them? This further kills the class.
2. there is no other reasonable platform for the "big boys." I would argue that the F20c is not a reasonable alternative to the N20 at this time (or maybe ever).

Join the new wave or die (and still possibly die, but at least then you will have company)


Suddenly occurred to me that now would be a good time for a manufacturer to come out with a reasonably priced 20 footer. No craziness, just a solid 20 footer (overgrown infusion looking sort of deal). Of course they won't make any money though....

Last edited by PTP; 10/05/11 02:18 PM.
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: PTP] #238678
10/05/11 02:22 PM
10/05/11 02:22 PM
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pgp Offline
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I keep remembering that for a big part of their history, A class cats were homebuilds, out of wood for the most part. They didn't really become hi-tech until they wanted to get below 200 lbs.!

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/worrell.htm

Last edited by pgp; 10/05/11 02:24 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: pgp] #238688
10/06/11 07:19 AM
10/06/11 07:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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any wealthy folk want to buy the plugs for the N20 and fire off a few sets if PC isn't going to build them anymore?

I agree that there aren't any other 20 foot alternatives that I'm aware of.

If I recall, the I20 wasn't that much more than a N6.0, especially since it already had the spinnaker on it


Jay

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238692
10/06/11 08:38 AM
10/06/11 08:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
Forget it..The F20Carbon is so superior that it has obsoleted all the other 20 footers except maybe the Marstom20..Its a lot of money but well worth every penny. Guys try the f20c out.. It is absolutely brilliant.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: pitchpoledave] #238693
10/06/11 08:48 AM
10/06/11 08:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Newsflash: I top of the line, Tybee 500 winner, Tradewinds winner etc. N20 is available for less than $12k now. I sold my boat, easily capable of the same, for less than $9k (older sails). The guys racing these boats are generally bigger (crew weight >400 lbs), and don't have the $33k for a F20c (in general).

I bought the N20 because, at the time, the local fleet size was large, lake sailing and ocean sailing were the predominate racing conditions, for which the N20 is great at. I'm living in a generally light-air location nowadays, with an active N20 fleet, but I sold the boat before moving here and won't be buying another. Why? I don't need a boat capable of supporting a >400 lb crew, making the F18 a much more ideal platform given the large fleet size, and the fact that for $12k I can buy a competitive boat.

If I had unlimited $$$ (working on that part), I'd have a F18 and a F20c, with the later for pure distance racing events where flat line speed is king and the former for large fleet around the buoys racing.

Last edited by samc99us; 10/06/11 08:48 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: samc99us] #238699
10/06/11 09:43 AM
10/06/11 09:43 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by samc99us
and the fact that for $12k I can buy a competitive boat.


What f18 is 12k?

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: ] #238701
10/06/11 09:50 AM
10/06/11 09:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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ksurfer2  Offline
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K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by samc99us
and the fact that for $12k I can buy a competitive boat.


What f18 is 12k?


A good competitive used infusion or capricorn can easily be found for around $12K


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: ksurfer2] #238704
10/06/11 10:15 AM
10/06/11 10:15 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by samc99us
and the fact that for $12k I can buy a competitive boat.


What f18 is 12k?



A good competitive used infusion or capricorn can easily be found for around $12K


Gotcha, I thought he (we) were talking new boat costs.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: samc99us] #238708
10/06/11 01:48 PM
10/06/11 01:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by samc99us
don't have the $33k for a F20c (in general).

seriously. Who has 33k for a cat? Unless you are sponsored and/or can write off the cost of the boat (can the Zhik boat do this?) then it out of reach for the vast majority of people.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: PTP] #238710
10/06/11 02:12 PM
10/06/11 02:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Come on... The cost of the boat is related to the game you want to play. You decide if it's worth it!

If you are pursuing an Olympic Campaign...A Tornado would have set you back about that amount.... Is a T worth it?

Take a look at the Melges 20 class... I think those boats are 50 to 60K... They come with an International racing circuit run by the builder. They have more class racing going on then does the F16 which has years of boats out in the fleets at 1/3 the price. The melges owners think its a good game to play.

The issue is not the cost of the boat per se... rather... Is there a race or set of races that I simply want to win or own the course records for!

The Seacart 30 that we race against on the Chesapeake is simply gone in any race... Hardly a contest unless it's a reachy kind of day. This owner researched the boat (15 world wide) got a deal, made an offer and decided he wanted to own some records and day sail with his wife!. So, it's worth every penny to him. He has owned LOTs of pricey high tech mono's... and says this is the most fun of them all. (We can't figure out why there are not more deep pocket sailors like him... cause we want a ride like our buddy George snagged)

The problem with the new Nacra boat is that there are no obvious races that you can point the thing at. The good news is that a few owners see it differently... Apparently, the quality of the ride is an overwhelming grin. The few races are good enough for them.

Nevertheless... my general rule... It's never about the boat... It is always about the game!

The same point must be made about an Open 20 rule. If the game is interesting enough, prestigious, competitive enough crazy, off the wall, or just of great personal interest to you.... You will play.

Like Dave, I see what these guys are trying to accomplish. There are as they say... lots of ways to skin a cat... My choice would have been to copy the EU and race like they do at CARNAC ...eg handicap... (I think it's a tough sell to say it's a level playing field)

So... IMO... its about the game to play, then the boat and the quality of the ride and then the dollars.. Would you spend any amount of money to compete in a game you don't want to play... Answer NO... Would you spend any amount of money to sail a boat that sails poorly? No... Life is too short.









Last edited by Mark Schneider; 10/06/11 02:41 PM.

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