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Re: Rule change [Re: pgp] #257500
02/14/13 09:47 AM
02/14/13 09:47 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
The current rule has led to an unintended consequence: the willingness of port tackers to abandon the onus of the rule.


I knew you would say that. However, breaking rules is not OK, and there are ways to deal with that. Having one-sided rules will make the game less enjoyable.

I know, a broken boat isn't enjoyable either, but there's only so much a rule book can protect you. The rest is best done by culture (protest, pep talk behind woodshed, etc.).

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rule change [Re: pgp] #257501
02/14/13 10:00 AM
02/14/13 10:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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The social dynamic doesn't seem to be upholding the existing rule.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rule change [Re: David Ingram] #257502
02/14/13 10:04 AM
02/14/13 10:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
I'll just be sure to yell louder and earlier and give you friendly advice like "you're not gonna make it" or "don't go in there" you know becuase I'm a giver and Chris is pretty.


You're generous to a fault, Ding smile

Perhaps I should revise my strategy to stop your boat: get a pretty driver and push the port tack....

But back to Pete's suggestion. I would have to disagree and reinforce the "it's every sailor's duty to avoid collision".

When has a collision served to elevate the sport in any aspect (except maybe parts sales)?

This ain't a freakin demolition derby, especially at current boat prices.

I'll admit I've "hunted" a few port-tackers on the course or pre-start. If given total immunity on starboard as you suggest, I probably could have rammed a few people if I were so inclined to make my point that way.

Can you expound on the exact circumstances of the incident you describe? Was it a total miscalculation of the port tacker causing the collision? Which boat was damaged? What remedies were offered?

IIRC, if boats are involved in a collision, aren't they both required to retire? Would the exonerated boat then be given redress in the room?


Jay

Re: Rule change [Re: Jake] #257510
02/14/13 11:36 AM
02/14/13 11:36 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by David Ingram


If you feel that storngly about it put it in your SI's, test the water.


I'm not sure you are allowed to change (technically speaking) those rules in the SI's...per the rules.


Since we are doing the "crazy talk" thing... you could chuck the rules and write your own, yes?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
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Re: Rule change [Re: David Ingram] #257511
02/14/13 11:52 AM
02/14/13 11:52 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by David Ingram


If you feel that storngly about it put it in your SI's, test the water.


I'm not sure you are allowed to change (technically speaking) those rules in the SI's...per the rules.


Since we are doing the "crazy talk" thing... you could chuck the rules and write your own, yes?


I suppose if we're just saying "to hell with it" anything goes!


Jake Kohl
Re: Rule change [Re: pgp] #257525
02/14/13 11:04 PM
02/14/13 11:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
I was racing in the days of ... when you needed to HIT the other boat to win the protest ... and ... Starboard tack boats had absolute rights and did not have to avoid a collison ...

I found myself in the position of rounding the leeward mark, exiting on port w/ (2)other boats overlapped and to my port (I was on the outside of the pinwheel effectively ) ... and a boat that rounded ahead of us and went low, came back at us on Starboard ... I WAS PINNED as the (2) boats to my port did not/would not tack ... I was told in the protest that I HAD to immediately tack onto starboard and hit the boat to my port ... I said NO ... I will not hit another boat on purpose!!!! just to win a protest!!! I lost the protest ... but the rule was changed the next year to it's new format ... much better!!!!

... and remember Pete ... the starboard boat gets to determine what is too close and calls the protest!!! Take it to the Protest Room !!! While it's not enjoyable, it's a lot easier then doing fiberglass/gelcoat work ... trust me!!!! And infinitely SAFER!!!


Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/P19MX

Re: Rule change [Re: pgp] #257526
02/15/13 07:11 AM
02/15/13 07:11 AM
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brucat Offline
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Why couldn't you duck the starboard boat, or protest him for tacking too close?

Mike

Re: Rule change [Re: pgp] #257530
02/15/13 06:16 PM
02/15/13 06:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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Mike,

This was way back when "mast abeam" still existed and tacking too close/room and opportunity didn't exist yet in the RRS's. And the wind was maybe 10-12 knots ... just short of trapping for us ... but hiked out w/ the footstraps ... (I was +220 lbs at the time and my crew was 180-190 lbs ...)

The H-18 that protested me rounded the leeward mark first, went low ... followed by two H16's "C" Fleeters then me quickly on my H-18 ... maybe there was a wind shift cause we came around and point up maybe 10-15 degrees higher immediately ... the two H16's didn't get rolling/going quickly as they got into a pinching contest ... I was trying to get "mast abeam" and roll them ... and was there ... when the other H-18 tacked and came "hunting" us on starboard ... I couldn't duck ... the angle just wasn't there to duck ... I would have accelerated too much and still wouldn't have cleared him ... and I couldn't tack away w/o hitting the H16 only a few feet to my Port .... I was the "meat" in the sandwich ... all I could do was go straight as fast as I could ... and I tried ... the H-18 hunting us never eased his mainsheet and hit my rudder ... and then informed me that he was going to protested me "After" we crossed the finish-line (this happened at the last rounding/on the beat to the finish ...) No hail any where near the collision ...

I was placed in a "no-win" situation ...tack onto starboard and hit the H-16 or be hit by the H16 ... go straight and try and clear ... but the other H-18 hunted us and under the rules at the time had no obligation to avoid the collision ... and he didn't ... remember at the time you needed to hit someone to prove that it was too close and win the protest ... and that's what he did ...

... and as I've always said ... on a H-18, right or wrong, he or does the hitting gets a hole in his boat ... and that's what happened ... and on a H-18 that's the main reason why you avoid a collison at all costs ... self-preservation !!!

Re: Rule change [Re: pgp] #257534
02/15/13 10:03 PM
02/15/13 10:03 PM
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brucat Offline
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I remember mast abeam, which applied to boats on the same tack. I'm reasonably sure that tacking too close was always there too.

I agree with you though, the old rules only made the fiberglass guys happy (as was also mentioned mentioned above).

Mike

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