I thought I had but I'll just do it again.

I understand there is a desire to have a true youth catamaran. And in this case I seperate youth ( < 12 years) from the teenagers ( > 12 years). I actually agree with that part of the claim.

I'm not too sure, however, if the F12 is best suited to that role or whether it is simply pushed into that role because it is the best alternative available.

I do believe there is a significant push from a certain geographical area towards the latter part.

And I'm convinced the demographic data and ratios of the F12 design favor usage by the 55-75 kg crews alot more; especially when the F12 is a hiking boat rather then a singlehanded trapeze craft. This weight band is typically associated to 12-18 years olds and adult females c.q. bottom 60% of adult males.

I am really happy to hear from Gato that the expereinces so far have been promising, but I would love to know exactly the ages, weights and length of the people who have sailed her so far and see what percentage is truly a youth (kid). Not too mention the wind and water conditions. The age alone is not enough as some 10% of the worlds 12 year olds are above 55 kg and we all known Scandinavian people are the tallest in the world.


Now having said all this. I don't really care whether the F12 is used and promoted for youths (< 12 years) or not. Anything to keep them of the Laser dinghy and grow the ranks of cat sailors is a good thing.

I do however object strongly to promoting the F12 as exclusively youth oriented. I think Gato's experience that the parents were also after him for a F12 for themselvees as indicative. A F12 is a rather big toy and we all know how feeble the attention span of a youth can be. It is the parent that must justify the expenses and hassle of owning a F12. Being marketing savy means that it is alot smarter to include the parents in the F12 concept. Also for the youths as what youngster doesn't want to play being a grown up ?

I think the biggest mistake ever is to make a design exclusively for kids. It spells "training wheels" to them like nothing else. I remember that back in the day I was overjoyed when I got my first adult sized bicycle. It is a little too big for me but I soone grew into that. Which is another point with respect to F12's. Kids don't stay small for very long. If a design is optimized for < 12 years of age then most of them will outgrow the design in 2 to 4 years. For I really don't see many 8 year olds justify the purchase of a 3000 bucks F12. Note how 95% of the 8 year old kids (or younger) are shorter then 1 mtr and weight less then 35 kg. How would they right the craft ? How would they handle the rig even when on the trapeze they would match the power-to-weight and heeling-to-weight ratio of the 1-up F16 ?

I think it to be alot smarter to design the F12's in such a way that they are truly accessible to youths (if you lean that way) but don't spit them out as soon as they hit their teenage years because the hulls are under volumed.

The succes stories in both the Laser and splash/flash dinghy classes is that the youths get pulled into them at a young age but can stay there till way in their teens (possibly by exchanging the rigs for a smaller one). And Mom or Dad can take out the same boats for a ride using the some rig or the normal sized rig. This goes a long way in convincing Mom and Pop to lay down the money in purchasing the craft.

In short, "filling a niche" does not necessarily imply "being marketable" even when the reverse is true. Design for a niche that is too small or doesn't yet have their own purse is a design flaw. I think the Hobie product range for youths has proven that. Go anf take a look at their product range and see it you know any of these designs. http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,produits It is the line-up on the lefts in red lettering. The only exception is the Hobie Wave but that boat is mostly sailed/raced by adults. Which give further weight to my proposal to at least ALSO cater for adults.

I also think there is another issue in the F12 class. If indeed we wanted a catamaran truly for youths then why are we fiddling about with single piece carbon rotating wing masts with spreaders, diamond wires, downhaul systems etc ? And not fully focussed on simple sleeved sails using glassfibre tubing for a mast and have only a kicking strap and mainsheet. The latter is heaps less expensive and 10 times more easy to ship. Right now the F12 is going the way of becoming the "A-cat for kids" ? An oxymoron if their ever is one.

I mean it the F12 is to be complete focussed on youths then marketability demands that it is dirt cheap to produce and even easier to transport. Right now the 6 mtr long mast that can not be broken down in smaller pieces is a serious road law infriction when it is car topped. At least in 80% of the developped world where there is enough money to buy a F12. How do I know ? Because I'm avoiding the police at all times when I car-top my non-collapsible 4.70 mtr tall landyachting / windsurfing masts. Most cars are only 3.50 mtr long overall. Having the mast stick out 1.25 mtr at the back and 1.25 mtr at the front will attract police attention for sure.

The "A-cat for kids" promises neither to be dirt cheap or easy (legally) transportable. Of course, if it is the same boat that Dad is using then the justification for getting the additional car trailer will be less of an obstacle. We all know that the difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.


Now summarizing the comments above. I say, lets get away from our focus of making the F12 "kids-only". It is neither a reasonable goal design wise nor smart market wise. Of course, doing a double "humm maybe" on these two points is a serious impediment to growing the F12's into a succesful class.

Lets expand the F12 concept to include all teenagers and small to medium adults. Seperate the class in a racing fleet below 12 years and above 12 year olds if we have too. Market the class to both fleets hard. If we are not getting the youths then at least we are attracting new adults to the cat racing scene and visa versa. Lets expand our market base that way and achieve larger turn-overs. The latter will reduce cost and grow fleets quicker which in turn means the F12 become progressively more attractive to new customers. INCLUDING YOUTHS.

Also there seems to be an adult based niche for these boats, many in this forum have said so themselves and also look at the Hobie wave class. These people y will provide " F12 beach heads" in various nations and regions from which the F12 class may grow internationally. Getting off the ground is the hardest part in any class. Being chavalier on that aspect is more then being "unwise". It may proof to be killing in the long run (ask Hobie corp with their youth boats) if we don't do that.

So get the marketabilty right for the F12 and then adjust the design so it does fill the desired niche for <12 year olds as well. The difference right now is just putting enough volume in the hulls. What is the penality in that ? From the F18 and F16 classes we already known that you can't really over do it with respect to hull volume. Too much volume is nowhere near as bad as too little hull volume. Now the < 12 kids won't notice some 3 % performance loss due to designing the hulls to max 150 kg displacement. They got more then enough power in that 7.00 sq. mtr. by 6 mtr rig to overcome it.

Wouter