But interesting enough the F12, without a spi or hooter, could be just as fast as the most heavily upgraded Wave. So from an "equality in performance" perspective one could indeed argue that the cost price of the hooter setup should be included in the wave price.
That is true in terms of the design you are proposing. Might not be the case with other F12 designs, though.
I'm still leaving a large pathway open to commerical production of the F12. So I don't think it to be prudent to qualify the F12 as being a pure home-build.
Wouldn't a factory-built version of your design cost more than the home-built version, though? Manufacturers usually seem to say that it costs them almost as much to build a small boat as a much larger boat.
Well yes, otherwise the conditions wouldn't be called SUITABLE, would it ?
I don't know how else to say it. I mean, of course, that small children new to sailing can handle it in light wind conditions, even though it seems like a very big boat for 8-year-olds.
....Mary, I recall you being sceptical about the shorter and much lighter F12'10" ability to be cartopped. How can that be when you think the Wave is cartoppable. This strikes me as illogical.
I'm a woman -- I don't have to be logical <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I don't recall being skeptical about your design being cartoppable. It obviously will be. It is just a question of whether a woman can (or will) put it on and off the car roof by herself. I AM a little skeptical about that.
As far as the Wave goes, I don't really consider that a serious option, because it just ain't gonna happen unless two adults are involved. I was just pointing out that it CAN be done. The Kulkoskis are able to carry a whole fleet of Waves around on their trailer -- it's at least six that they can transport with the boats all disassembled. It's kind of a nice feature if you are going to transport a group of kids around to different regattas or put on clinics for kids in various locations.
There is some private e-mailing going on behind the public discussion of these boats and this "running boats into the docks" thing has got the questionable honour of being the humoristic element in the communications.
Apparently this is a big thing in the USA as none of the NON-US based youth initiatives report any kind of this behaviour, not even accidentally.
May I say that this appears to be alot more like an advertising gimmick explaining the use of the otherwise inferiour rotomoulded polyethyleen then a real necessity ?
I think it is pretty humorous, too. But when you have a whole group of kids on the water, varying stages of experience, and no adults on board, anything can (and does) happen.
Actually, I have personally witnessed several instances of experienced adults running their boats into docks and onto rocks, too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Definitely not humorous.
If that Dart is any indication, rotomolded boats do not have to be slow and look clunky. (I think it is rotomolded, isn't it?)
Anyway, rotomolding is certainly not a necessity. It's just a factor that people consider when getting a boat for their kids or for sailing schools (whether for kids or adults).
Still a few things surprise me here. You say it is the perfect boat for children, but you strongly against the F12 being comparable in length, sailarea and even performance. F12 at 3000 US$ is far too expensive but the Wave at (verified) 4295 US$ isn't ? You like the fact that the Wave allows larger kids and the whole family to sail it, but you are pretty much against the F12 having the same capabilities as that would make it unsuitable for the children.
What I mean is that with the Wave, for instance, myself and my daughter and all four children can go out on the boat at the same time. That probably would not be the case with your design. I'm not sure about yours, but I am visualizing maybe two-three children at a time or one child, or one child and one adult, or adult sailing alone. In other words, the whole family can use it, but not necessarily all at the same time.
I'm a little bit lost here. You can't adhere to both lines of thought simultaniously as they are in direct conflict with eachother.
So which one of the two is correct conviction that you hold ?
Of course, I can adhere to both lines of thought (I'm a woman, remember <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and I don't see any conflict at all.
I have already made clear that what I would like is a SMALL boat, probably less than 12 feet long, suitable for a young child to single-hand, with relatively low speed but good tacking ability.
Here is kind of what I envision. I already have a Wave, so I see that as kind of the "mothership." I could take the whole family out on the Wave and tow the little boat behind the Wave. And then, once we are away from the dreaded docks and rocks and anchored boats, let the children take turns sailing the little boat by themselves, one or two at a time, while we coach and cheer from the mothership.
Once the children are able to get to point A and back to their point of departure and know how to tack and jibe, then my daughter and the children would be on their own to take the boat to the beach and play on it.
THAT is my interest in this whole discussion. I don't think I have ever deviated from that goal. And that is why I am waiting for Phill's design. And also why I am looking for an old Catyak (9'4" long) if that turns out to be the only option.
