Thanks Matt, my point is that you want to reduce the variables in the boats and make it more about the sailor.
This discussion would be more productive with more information... Stephen, taking the Falcon as an example and assuming for the sake of discussion a nominal weight of 112kg, what do you believe would be the actual performance impact (say minutes per hour, or equivalent delta Texel) of (a) decreasing the weight to 107kg and (b) increasing weight to your proposed 115kg, all other factors being equal?
5 kg could mean a boat length or 2 on each downwind leg for example. The boat has to push an extra 5 liters of water out the way. Each gust the lighter boat will accelerate that little bit quicker, run just that little bit deaper. Around the course by yourself it would not make much difference. In a sizable fleet a few boat lengths could mean places and mean a greater difference in time over the course of the race. Racing in a big fleet you will notice that a boat that gains even 1/3 boat length on you can spit you out the back and add to even more of a loss as you are forced to gain clear air.
Originally Posted by MarkMT
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Matt, how much would a sloop Falcon set me back with alloy beams, mast, spinnaker pole, glass hulls and carbon foils. And how much would this boat way.
Now how much would a sloop Falcon set me back if it had carbon mast, beams, hulls, spinnaker pole?
Can I suggest that a more relevant question is how much Matt would charge you to produce a boat that is 107kg (or if you like, 3kg under)? (Also note that this question becomes even more interesting when combined with your answer to my question above.) A full carbon boat is an interesting idea but if it comes in way under weight it doesn't really help us understand the relative merits of 107 vs 115.
That is what I thought I asked. How much would Matt charge for a full Carbon Falcon over a standard boat. And Marcus, how much would you charge for a full Carbon Blade? I do not want a boat that is way underweight, but perhaps a few kg under. The weight saved by using Carbon can be used to build stiffer beams or beam mounts. Take the weight from aloft and put it down low and close to the center of effort, reducing the pitching of the boat.
Originally Posted by MarkMT
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
If a sloop Viper is so quick at 130kg, how much quicker would it be if it was 23kg lighter, had reduced weight aloft, out front (spinnaker pole), was as stiff or stiffer again?
A fair question, but I think it needs to be answered in the context of some other pieces of information... e.g. how much of the Viper's 130kg is a consequence of the decision to use bigger components like beams and choice of manufacturing methods, what is the actual impact of beam size (and maybe other things) on stiffness and of that stiffness on speed, and compared with say a Falcon, how much of the increased hull weight can be attributed to the size of the hulls vs say materials or construction methods? (BTW your question about the 130kg Viper would still be valid relative to your preferred class weight of 115kg.)
Yes Viper will still be overweight and the same argument would be valid, however Greg has chosen to build his boat at 130kg and is quiet heavier then the average F16. I have only seen pictures of the Falcon. I have sailed the Blade and seen the Viper and know the hulls and beams are MUCH bigger on the Viper then the Blade. Obviously the added stiffness and hull volume allows for the Viper to push an extra 20 odd litres of water out the way and still keep up. The weight is a handicap for the boat, but these other factors out weigh it. Put the Viper on a diet whilst maintain platform rigitity and it will be quicker again. Quiet a bit so.
Weather the class does or does not choose to raise the min weight, just restrict the use of carbon in all but the foils. If a company then builds a boat like a Viper and chooses to increase the hull volume or platform stiffness at the expense of weight, then it is their decision. As long as they don’t build an all carbon boat down to weight and force the class into an arms race.
